Community

Joined Mar 2009

162 Posts

I have recently come back to DDI and Charop and surfing the boards I could not find an up to date charging fighter. So, I created one that could deal tremendous damage and be incredibly sticky by zipping around the battlefield. Let's cut to the chase and show you the character;

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Minotaur, Weaponmaster, Beastblooded Minotaur, Invincible Vanguard
Build: Battlerager Fighter
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Two-handed Weapon Talent

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 28, CON 22, DEX 13, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 12

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

AC: 42 Fort: 47 Ref: 39 Will: 40
HP: 231 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 57

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +28, Endurance +25, Intimidate +21, Perception +26

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Arcana +16, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +19, Heal +19, History +16, Insight +19, Nature +21, Religion +16, Stealth +15, Streetwise +16, Thievery +15

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Minotaur Racial Power: Goring Charge
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Wicked Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Threatening Rush
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter Utility 6: Line Breaker
Fighter Utility 10: Mighty Surge
Beastblooded Minotaur Attack 11: Sweeping Gore
Beastblooded Minotaur Utility 12: Thrashing Horns
Fighter Utility 16: Bolstering Stride
Fighter Attack 17: Minotaur Charge
Fighter Attack 19: Reaving Strike
Beastblooded Minotaur Attack 20: Giant's Sweep
Fighter Utility 22: Howl of Defiance
Fighter Attack 23: Behemoth Wrath
Fighter Attack 25: Earthquake Smash
Invincible Vanguard Utility 26: Endless Assault
Fighter Attack 27: Invigorating Fury
Fighter Attack 29: Cascading Catapult Slam

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Execution axe)
Level 2: Hewing Charge
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 6: Improved Vigor
Level 8: Savage Axe
Level 10: Defensive Mobility
Level 11: Berserker's Fury
Level 12: Bloody Gore
Level 14: Reckless Charge
Level 16: Vicious Ferocity
Level 18: Marked Scourge
Level 20: Springing Charge
Level 21: Cleaving Axe
Level 22: Unstoppable Charge
Level 24: Vicious Stomp
Level 26: Improved Defenses
Level 28: Martial Mastery
Level 30: Epic Reflexes

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit
Forge Armor
Long-Distance Runner
Peerless Exploration
Vorpal Execution axe +6 x1
Defender's Pitmail Armor +6 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier) x1
Horned Helm (epic tier) x1
Belt of Vitality (epic tier) x1
Swiftstrike Shoes (paragon tier) x1
Gauntlets of Blood (epic tier) x1
Ring of Heroic Health (epic tier) x1
Brooch of Vitality +6 x1
====== End ======

I will sum up this build in two sections, first being how he does on LDB's five items fighters want, and the second being all the goodies this guy gets when he charges.

Battlefield Control: All fighters with Combat superiority and Challenge basically get this by default, and this guy also has Potent Challenge and Marked Scourge to improve this after charging. Reach 2 from the PP is also nice.

Damage: This is one of the places where the Charging Bull really shines. At Level 30, he does 2d12+3d6+25 (2d12+3d6+29 against a guy he has marked) on his basic attack with a +36 to hit when charging, and almost all of his Dailies and Encounters allow him to charge while using them. the Ex. Axe is Brutal 2, High Crit, and the Vorpal weapon does loads more damage on crit.

Mobility: Base speed 7 in chainmail is great to start, and the +4 bonus against OAs when charging is just awesome. He can also absorb a few OAs while charging with his 233 hp and all the temp hp BRV gives. +5 speed in first turn from Swiftstrike Shoes is also useful.

Stickiness: This guy doesn't really care if the guy he marks moves away, because that means that the next turn's chage will be all that much more deadly.

Survivability: the Battlerager Vigor build is 'the survivor build' for fighters by design, and Brooch of Vitality is also very good. This build also has an unreal 17 Healing Surges per day.

Charging Bull's Charge:

MBA: +37 to hit, 2d12+3d6+31, +35 against mark, +42 against a bloodied enemy. Crit on 19 or 20 for 6d12+3d12(high crit)+71, all this damage is Brutal, and the Vorpal Weapon allows more damage dice to be thrown every time max damage is rolled on a die.

Charge Goodies:

Springing Charge: Charges a new enemy on Crit on first charge.

Unstoppable Charge: More actions after charge, great for this build.

Charge as Free Action after AP use. (PP level 11 feature)

Hewing Charge: Add Con mod to charge damage (already included in math) (thx reg06)

Reckless Charge: -2 AC for +1 to hit on a charge option

Encounters and Dailies usable on a Charge:

Both of my At-Wills are now usable on charge.

Punishing Charge (Encounter 1)
Bull Charge (Encounter 3)
Hydra Charge (Encounter 7)
Boulder Charge (Daily 15)
Minotaur Charge (Encounter 17)
Behemoth's Wrath (Encounter 23)

All constructed criticism is welcome, I want this to be the best it can be for the Fighter Charge Build on Charop.

Props to:
LDB (for the Figher Guide, and for all his contributions to Charop)
Wizards, for adding back the quick export function to the Character Builder
All who post constructively
Anyone who can find a good pic for the top of the thread

It's not a matter of Right vs. Left, it's a matter of right vs. wrong My Charop Works Who Am I Really? The Theme Handbook I'm an

D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

#2 Jun 13, 2011 13:53:50

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

1) Why don't you have Wicked Strike and/or Brash Strike?
2) This build needs to be Weapon Talent, so it can pick up Hewing Charge.
3) I recommend Barbarian MC, so you can pick up Reckless Charge.
4) You really should be packing a gouge. It loses hi-crit, but allows you to take Spear Expertise, and Surprising Charge (which requires 17 DEX).

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#3 Jun 13, 2011 14:02:00

Ibaum

Joined May 2011

143 Posts

4) You really should be packing a gouge. It loses hi-crit, but allows you to take Spear Expertise, and Surprising Charge (which requires 17 DEX).

Spear Expertise also gives +1/2/3 bonus damage on charges.

Edit: Doh, read over your Spear Expertise recommendation. Nevermind me.

#4 Jun 13, 2011 14:09:44

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

As a Fighter he already stops movement, is way more accurate with the MBA, and does more damage. Its nice to have, but not necessary.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#5 Jun 13, 2011 14:20:41

meatnormous

Joined Jan 2011

105 Posts

You're a Minotaur Fighter without Opportunity Gore. Why?

+1... this feat is ridiculous, you need it. Especially if you got any Headsman Choppers in the group... and if you dont, make them take it.

And why not a Badge of the Berserker?... never played an epic tier charger but it seems a better choice than brooch of vitality IMO

#6 Jun 13, 2011 14:23:10

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

That holds true at Epic, when he has Vicious Stomp. Until 23rd level or so, there are more important feats.
How are you planning on making Goring Charge more accurate than a MBA? The first couple of levels per tier sure, but Expertise catches up very quickly. Inherent Bonuses?

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#7 Jun 13, 2011 14:30:42

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

And the MBA is still more accurate. And damaging. And *also* stops movement. Unless there is some great synergy for prone (like Vicious Stomp at Epic) it isn't that good on Fighters.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#8 Jun 13, 2011 14:33:58

curiousdragon

Joined Jan 2010

1174 Posts

Epic Reflexes over Improved Defenses?

I would certainly pick Improved Defenses...if not both.

#9 Jun 13, 2011 14:40:45

meatnormous

Joined Jan 2011

105 Posts

I agree, the most they can do after that is stand back up.. Opportunity Gore is a lot stickier than just saying "HALT!" and smacking the dude, because after that resolves he can still run off, even if he cant attack again because his turn is over at that point.

#10 Jun 13, 2011 14:43:37

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

The great synergy for prone is that their turn is now over, because they're stuck away from everyone else and proned.

Why would their turn be over? It is by no means a bad feat for a Fighter to have, however, needing to actually prone a creature vs stop a creature is going to be pretty rare, and the loss in accuracy and damage is pretty noticable.

Polearm builds can do that trick even better with the proper investment, of course, but it really is that good on Fighters.

Yes indeed, Fighters can do great things with polearms.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#11 Jun 13, 2011 15:30:26

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

So the enemy needs to do the following in order for the feat to be better than using a MBA;
- Provoke an OA (not that common)
- Be in a spot where a push 1 leaves it adjacent to no allies (pretty reliable)
- Not have reach (after Heroic, lots of enemies have reach)
- Not have a ranged option (lots of enemies have ranged options)
- Not have a big burst or a blast (not as common as the reach or ranged options)

Of course if the situation doesn't arise that the push 1 is better, you want to use the MBA anyways because you want the enemy adjacent in order to actually defend.
It's not a bad feat, but OAs are already rare enough that spending a feat to duplicate something you already do, except in some situational circumstances, isn't an excellent use of feats until much later on. And you lose damage and accuracy.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#12 Jun 13, 2011 15:40:17

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

The key point is that by taking the feat, you basically guarantee no enemy will provoke from you ever again.

I hope not. If that happens your DM is giving knowledge to the enemy that they shouldn't have. And the net effect ends up being that you don't have that feat.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#13 Jun 13, 2011 15:46:49

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

If the DM *never* provokes OAs from the Fighter because of this feat, in addition to being a generally bad DM, then the feat is *never* used, which is boring.

All of this aside, a bit of extra, situational, situational control isn't needed on a minotaur fighter than wants to charge around and crush people.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#14 Jun 13, 2011 16:55:21

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

Boring but effective! And non-boring but effective if he keeps provoking OAs anyway.

Anyway, the real issue here is that if you aren't using Opportunity Gore, you shouldn't be a Minotaur because they're an otherwise subpar race. Be a Warforged and refluff if it's the flavor you're after.

Beastblooded, Ferocity, and Bloodied Ferocity are good enough reasons to play a Minotaur.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#15 Jun 13, 2011 17:01:36

Joined Mar 2009

162 Posts

@erachima, reg06: Opportunity Gore is not the make or break for the Minotaur as a race, and the Fighter already has an amazing OA. Minotaurs also have the +2 to defenses against OAs while charging, and their Goring charge is best used in this build as it's name implies, as a charge. Using this valuable encounter as an OA sacrifices 3d6 damage for a static damage bonus, which is less than average of 3d6, ie 10.5.

@reg06: 1. My 2 At-Wills were already used up by the Crushing Surge, a mandatory for Battleragers, and the THreatening Rush, which is a charge attack and has multi-marking.
                2. Battlerager Vigor is essential to keep this guy standing, charging around a crowded battlefield is a risky business, and while he has a +4 to defenses against OAs, the increased Con and THP from Battlerager Vigor keep this guy standing even after multiple OAs from charging.
                3. Great idea, will incorporate it into ver. 1.1 of this build, what feat should I drop though?
                4. The only problem with going spears is that most of the Fighter Charge powers from MP1 and MP2 are Con based and have riders for    Axes, Hammers, and Maces, so I don't think the Spear Mastery and Suprising charge could entirely make up for that. I could be wrong however on the mathes.

Once again, thank you for the spirited debate, I hope to have a new slightly tweaked build posted in a day or so.

It's not a matter of Right vs. Left, it's a matter of right vs. wrong My Charop Works Who Am I Really? The Theme Handbook I'm an

D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

#16 Jun 13, 2011 17:07:55

Joined Jan 2008

136 Posts

If the whole point of this character is to charge around and smash things, why not just be a Barbarian? The class that was practically built to do just that.
If the whole point is to be a Fighter who charges, then Warforged with the Juggernaut PP is the way to go. PPs built for charging.
If youre gonna stay a Minotaur, and half care about doing your job of keeping mobs on you and not the squishies, take Opportunity Gore. Read:

Goring Charge
You charge the enemy and gore it with your horns.
Encounter
Standard ActionMelee1
Effect: You charge and make the following attack in place
of a melee basic attack.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity + 4 (6
at 11th level and 8 at 21st level) vs. AC
Hit: 1d6 + Strength modifier, Constitution modifier, or
Dexterity modifier damage, and you knock the target prone.
Level 11: 2d6 + Strength modifier, Constitution
modifier, or Dexterity modifier damage.
Level 21: 3d6 + Strength modifier, Constitution
modifier, or Dexterity modifier damage.

Opportunity Gore
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Minotaur, goring
charge racial power
Benefit: Whenever you make an opportunity attack,
instead of making the usual melee basic attack, you can use your goring charge
racial power without expending it, even if you have used it this encounter. When
you do so, you ignore the power's requirement and action type, and your target
is the creature that triggered the opportunity attack.

Talk about action denial. Combine with Hindering Shield + Forceful Opportunist to stop the mobs movement, slow, then prone them in 1 tidy package. So you're not dealing a crap ton of damage with your OA. Who cares?! You're a defender, not a striker. You're job isn't all about dealing massive damage. It's about pissing off and screwing the mobs up so they leave the party be for the most part and they kick ass.
As far as accuracy goes, yeah, Goring Charge is looke down on because it "doesn't scale well". As a Fighter, you should have at least a decent Wis mod which you get to add to you OAs from Combat Superiority. TaDa!

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

#17 Jun 13, 2011 17:12:04

Sagacious-Atom

Joined Feb 2009

501 Posts

Starlight Captain

The Time-Shaper

The Ironstone Destroyer

Fluffy White Kitten

This build also has an unreal 17 Healing Surges per day, which could be a fighter Charop record (don't know that for sure).

17 surges is nice, but nowhere near the highest possible. Just off the top of my head, a mul battlemind/snow tiger can have as many as 27? I'm sure there are ways to get even more.

My Builds:

#18 Jun 13, 2011 19:26:49

Joined Mar 2009

162 Posts

@erachima: *head slap* sorry, I read that way too fast. That said, Opportunity Gore has a -3 penalty to hit vs an MBA, and hitting is essential for all of that action denial.

@Sagacious-Atom: as I said, I have been gone from Charop for about a year, will change that

@YrdBrd420: This guy, while dealing good damage, is designed to fill the Defender Role, which it does by catching any enemy who moves away from him, and hurting him badly. This is an incentive for the bad guys to attack the charging bull.

It's not a matter of Right vs. Left, it's a matter of right vs. wrong My Charop Works Who Am I Really? The Theme Handbook I'm an

D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

#19 Jun 13, 2011 20:01:17

Joined Jan 2008

136 Posts

Between Combat Superiority and item bonuses to OAs, hitting with Goring Charge as an OA isn't a concern.

It depends on how aggressively you pump Wis too. If you pump it like a true secondary, the difference between attack rolls with Goring Charge as an OA and an OA with your weapon is 1. Exactly what Fighter Weapon Talent is.
As a Battlerager, I can see where this is problem because youre pumping Con hard.
Back to, if you really want to be all about charging, Warforged + Warforged Juggernaut.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

#20 Jun 14, 2011 8:29:28

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

@reg06: 1. My 2 At-Wills were already used up by the Crushing Surge, a mandatory for Battleragers, and the THreatening Rush, which is a charge attack and has multi-marking.
                2. Battlerager Vigor is essential to keep this guy standing, charging around a crowded battlefield is a risky business, and while he has a +4 to defenses against OAs, the increased Con and THP from Battlerager Vigor keep this guy standing even after multiple OAs from charging.
                3. Great idea, will incorporate it into ver. 1.1 of this build, what feat should I drop though?
                4. The only problem with going spears is that most of the Fighter Charge powers from MP1 and MP2 are Con based and have riders for    Axes, Hammers, and Maces, so I don't think the Spear Mastery and Suprising charge could entirely make up for that. I could be wrong however on the mathes.

1. & 2. I actually recommend going Weapon Talent if you want a charge based fighter. Weapon Talent opens up Hewing Charge, which is kind of vital to the concept. And you want that bonus to hit if you're going to base yourself around low accuracy weapons.
3. Savage Axe, or Potent Challenge. Or even better, Defensive Mobility. If you're worried about OAs stopping your charges, take Badge of the Berserker.
4. The gouge is both a spear and an axe, and currently has the highest damage per [W], and minimum damage (or is tied for those values).

Reg06: Beastblooded isn't even good, let alone reason enough to play the race. Again, compare it to Warforged Juggernaut.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, Beastblooded is at least solid. Two free action attacks is pretty fantastic. Warforged Juggernaut has "Charging Strike", and thats about the only reason to go into the PP (the other features are decent, but Charging Strike is the only reason the PP is taken). From a gameplay standpoint, Beastblooded is fantastic. Beastblooded means the Minotaur will be making 2 MBAs when bloodied, and their APs are awesome.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#21 Jun 14, 2011 9:09:03

Joined Aug 2005

10227 Posts

It depends on how aggressively you pump Wis too. If you pump it like a true secondary, the difference between attack rolls with Goring Charge as an OA and an OA with your weapon is 1. Exactly what Fighter Weapon Talent is.

I'm thinking more like a difference of 4 or 5. Unfortunately, Goring Charge still hasn't gotten fixed in light of the Expertise feats like more recent accessory-less attack powers have, so that makes a difference of 4 after level 24, and many Fighters use +3 proficiency weapons while Goring Charge only models a +2 proficiency weapon, possibly making a total difference of 5. For Goring Charge to only have a difference of 1 expected by Weapon Talent, it would need to scale more like +6/+9/+12 rather than +4/+6/+8.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!

#22 Jun 14, 2011 9:56:55

Joined Jan 2008

136 Posts

It depends on how aggressively you pump Wis too. If you pump it like a true secondary, the difference between attack rolls with Goring Charge as an OA and an OA with your weapon is 1. Exactly what Fighter Weapon Talent is.

I'm thinking more like a difference of 4 or 5. Unfortunately, Goring Charge still hasn't gotten fixed in light of the Expertise feats like more recent accessory-less attack powers have, so that makes a difference of 4 after level 24, and many Fighters use +3 proficiency weapons while Goring Charge only models a +2 proficiency weapon, possibly making a total difference of 5. For Goring Charge to only have a difference of 1 expected by Weapon Talent, it would need to scale more like +6/+9/+12 rather than +4/+6/+8.

Like I said, that all depends on how aggressively you pump Wis. As a Battlerager, you Wis isn't going to be great, so yes, Goring Charge will suffer as an OA. Going with a Weapon Talent and boosting Wis, it scales much more closely to your weapon.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

#23 Jun 14, 2011 14:28:48

Joined Mar 2009

162 Posts

Okay, new update to the build posted, incorporates many recommended changes.

@reg06: 1. My 2 At-Wills were already used up by the Crushing Surge, a mandatory for Battleragers, and the THreatening Rush, which is a charge attack and has multi-marking.
                2. Battlerager Vigor is essential to keep this guy standing, charging around a crowded battlefield is a risky business, and while he has a +4 to defenses against OAs, the increased Con and THP from Battlerager Vigor keep this guy standing even after multiple OAs from charging.
                3. Great idea, will incorporate it into ver. 1.1 of this build, what feat should I drop though?
                4. The only problem with going spears is that most of the Fighter Charge powers from MP1 and MP2 are Con based and have riders for    Axes, Hammers, and Maces, so I don't think the Spear Mastery and Suprising charge could entirely make up for that. I could be wrong however on the mathes.

1. & 2. I actually recommend going Weapon Talent if you want a charge based fighter. Weapon Talent opens up Hewing Charge, which is kind of vital to the concept. And you want that bonus to hit if you're going to base yourself around low accuracy weapons.
3. Savage Axe, or Potent Challenge. Or even better, Defensive Mobility. If you're worried about OAs stopping your charges, take Badge of the Berserker.
4. The gouge is both a spear and an axe, and currently has the highest damage per [W], and minimum damage (or is tied for those values).

Reg06: Beastblooded isn't even good, let alone reason enough to play the race. Again, compare it to Warforged Juggernaut.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, Beastblooded is at least solid. Two free action attacks is pretty fantastic. Warforged Juggernaut has "Charging Strike", and thats about the only reason to go into the PP (the other features are decent, but Charging Strike is the only reason the PP is taken). From a gameplay standpoint, Beastblooded is fantastic. Beastblooded means the Minotaur will be making 2 MBAs when bloodied, and their APs are awesome.

Added 1,2,and 3, as they were all very good ideas, now using Badge of the Berserker to replace BRV durability, improved attack bonus by 1 and damage by 7. The Gouge however and it's associated feats would require much Dex pumping, and that would make this guy too MAD unfortunately.

Opportunity Gore has been a much discussed topic on this thread. According to the CB, the Goring Charge does 3d6+15 damage with a +28 to hit, +31 on OAs w/ Opportunity Gore. This is just too subpar for me, and also Goring Charge isn't even a weapon Power, so Weapon talent doesn't help it.

On a related note, does anyone have suggestions on EDs that would be better or just as good as Demigod, I have always thought of this as painfully generic if also very good

It's not a matter of Right vs. Left, it's a matter of right vs. wrong My Charop Works Who Am I Really? The Theme Handbook I'm an

D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

#24 Jun 14, 2011 15:09:02

Joined Jul 2008

3834 Posts

Invincible Vanguard is pretty good for the concept.

Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.

#25 Jun 16, 2011 9:10:16

Joined Aug 2005

10227 Posts

Like I said, that all depends on how aggressively you pump Wis. As a Battlerager, you Wis isn't going to be great, so yes, Goring Charge will suffer as an OA. Going with a Weapon Talent and boosting Wis, it scales much more closely to your weapon.

I don't follow what you're trying to say. I don't see what pumping WIS has to do with it. Isn't that going to apply to the attack no matter if you use an MBA or Opportunity Gore? So, there will be no difference coming from that. And if you didn't get your WIS bonus with Opportunity Gore, wouldn't it be the opposite of what you're saying? With Goring Charge suffering more as an OA when you go with Weapon Talent and boosting WIS and not as much if you're a Battlerager or something? Maybe it's just the wording that you're using that's confusing me.

#26 Jun 16, 2011 9:26:38

Joined Jan 2008

136 Posts

I believe he's saying that a Fighter who keeps their WIS almost as high as their STR will find that Goring Charge and their normal OAs both hit on a 2.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

#27 Jun 16, 2011 9:28:14

Joined Aug 2005

10227 Posts

But... then the difference would be 0 and not 1?

I think that I get what you're saying, erachima, that, with a high enough WIS modifier to Goring Charge, it doesn't matter how much lower its bonus is to hit compared to an MBA because it's probably going to hit anyway, but that doesn't seem to match up with what they're saying, at least not as I'm able to interpret it.

#28 Jun 16, 2011 9:40:40

Joined Jan 2008

136 Posts

If you're a battlerager, don't bother with Opportunity Gore because your Wis will not be high enough to give you the bounus from Combat Superiority to make it on-par to hitwith a MBA. If you go with Weapon Talent, odds are you'll have a good enough Wis for Combat Superiority to boost Goring Charge to on-par with a MBA as an OA. You may be a couple ticks behind your MBA to hit, but that'll probably because you're using a +3 proficiency weapon and the +1 from Weapon Talent. So all and all, you'd be on-par to hit. You may lose some damage in there but you get to PRONE stuff on an OA.
In short, battleragers don't take it. Weapon Talent seriously consider it.

What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

#29 Jun 16, 2011 9:50:29

Joined Aug 2005

10227 Posts

But then there's also Weapon Expertise, so if we are going to count the difference, then it's not going to be just 1 even with a +2 proficiency weapon. And the difference isn't going to change no matter if you pump WIS or not, it's just whether the difference is going to be relevant that changes. I get what you're trying to say overall, but the individual things that you're saying still seem to make no sense, like you're right but for the wrong reasons... Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic. :P

#30 Jun 16, 2011 16:45:04

Joined Mar 2009

162 Posts