Community

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

So, you think as a trained wizard you are smart. This is a logical statement, but as with all hypotheses this must be proven before your colleages accept it. How do you plan on doing this, apprentice?

Cantrips are, and have always been, an area in the D&D system which lets creativity rule. This makes them almost unique in the 4th edition, which is focused on making statistical balance and limits ‘fluffy’ powers as they are not as easily controlled. This is a good thing, but Cantrips are a wonderfull controller option before a situation requires you to bring out the Guns (encounter or damaging at-wills), let alone the Big Guns (dailies or precious nova combos).
One of the only major problems people have with cantrips is that we forget about them or think they cannot have any significant effect at higher levels. Veterans will tell you this is patently wrong and this thread/guide is intended to highlight this fact.
To control the sheer volume of good ideas out there, I am limiting this guide to the Light, Ghost Sound, and Mage Hand cantrips. The Prestigitation cantrip will be in a separate posting simply to manage it better.

Cantrips have several advantages over other powers:

They are all at will, which can effectively mean ‘sustainable’ or ‘indefinite duration’

They require no attack rolls. Handy for someone who gets access through an item since ability scores don’t matter.

They can be used subtly unlike most other class abilities (note veterans: 4th ed does not include somatic or verbal components even though many DMs assume this)

They are readily available in cheap magic items

They are visibly non-lethal. While you don’t have to kill someone with a magic missile, bystanders can’t be sure whether you intend to subdue.

Most good uses will give a +2 situational bonus to your roll. You can effectively assist yourself in a skill check. In some cases, they open options you wouldn’t otherwise have (turning a drow’s face pasty white for a disguise)

Characters with social skills such as bluff or thievery often have better results from cantrips simply because they have more support skills. For instance, hiding an object in your palm may be handy, but when you are a good pickpocket it becomes gold.
Special note - A major problem with cantrips is the need for interpretation by the game master. This usually isn’t a problem as everyone loves good ideas, but it must be said that if you try to push the rules too far there is a chance that your good ideas will ‘stop working’.

Organization
I separated each cantrip into a separate post and into the following sections:

Pros – notable good things about the power

Cons – notable weaknesses or limitations of the power

Tricks – subtle strategies which may apply in multiple ways or change how the power can be used

Combat uses – Uses that could have a direct effect in combat

Non-Combat uses – Uses before, after, or totally outside combat

Questionable uses – Areas where some DMs may rule one way and others in other ways. Also powers which should be legal but a wise DM will shut down early as being just too good, disruptive, or plain annoying.

I don't see a reason to color the cantrips as a cantrip's power is really situational and subject to you creativity. I'd just end up leaving everything as green.

Comments
This is my first guide, but I am open to any information or suggestions people post. I must give credit to the older guide , which started me thinking.
Presdigitation is found in another guide in the Char Ops Forum.
There are ten psionic cantrips available in the dark sun campaign. If this thread does well, I highly suggest another person start a second thread for those cantrips as they are more defined but open even more tricks and options.

#2 Jan 23, 2011 11:08:29

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Light

Light can be the most useful and at the same time the most limited cantrip. It can obviously save you a mint on torches and sunrods, but there is very little variation in the effects.

Pros

Minor action to use- makes it useful in combat

The resulting light can affect places you don’t have line of effect to

Lasts a long time without upkeep (useful if you are killed or get stunned)

You can target an item or clothing on someone else without attack rolls

Negate as a free action (even off initiative)

Gives you the rare ability to turn on/off and move a light source every round with little effort

Cons

Only one Light effect at one time is allowed

Can’t change the light’s intensity at all

You can’t cast light directly onto a creature so some monsters can’t be ‘lit’ easily

Tricks

Once put on an item, it keeps shedding light even if you teleport across the globe. So, you can get around some of the range limitations if you are crafty.

It only lasts 5 minutes, so technically you have to keep renewing it. Many DMs will make it simple and say that it has indefinite duration so long as you are conscious since that is easier.

More a warning: Don’t let people totally rely on your light. If you are taken out of action, they can’t read the scroll to bring you back without light. They should have enough light sources for one day if you disappeared at minimum.

If a skill check is required to use the cantrip this way, it is noted with ‘*’.

Combat uses

Light up a creature. This is only possible when they are visible, but it almost negates the ability to hide and gives a much better chance to pinpoint someone that goes invisible. At worst you will know where to get cover from them. If they don’t have objects to light up, give them one with a slap of mud or barbed arrow or dart that hits. If they are out of range, cast this on an arrow and when it hits you got it.

Related to the above idea, make a point of lighting up the creature for your buddies to target. Makes you more of the leader, and makes the next one you light up easier to intimidate. Wash, rinse, repeat

Light up an area far away. Works wonders for ranged attackers so your guys can target them easily while you stay in the shadows. Note it can be moved every round. This works better if you pick up a Darkskull which can negate their light sources- but beware a darkvision creature.

If you can’t cover an entire area with light, use a minor action to light one area and then move it to another location with another minor action. This allows you to pinpoint creatures in the darkness at least.

Have a light effect in your mouth and flash them a smile for a distraction and maybe a bonus to your stealth check. Gold teeth are incredible for this one.

Turn it off for the enemy’s initiative as a free action. If the enemy doesn’t have low-light or darkvision, they are forced to either take serious penalties (blind, -2 for concealment) or hold/ready actions. Just relight things on your initiative, and potentially in a more defensive location.

Non-Combat uses

Use like you would use a torch (duh). But since it isn’t hot, put it in or on something that can be covered so you can control the light. Try a pebble in your mouth or a false tooth.

A type of fireworks display can be done if your DM allows you to change the appearance of the light (if not the game effects)

Leave a light near your party and when the light is negated (create another light effect), they act.

‘Curse’ your rogue. Unless they fight naked, that is.

Cast on something disposable and throw into the darkness to get a ‘flash’ of the area. Repeat as needed until you see everything.

Questionable uses

Mock magical item – Light creates a lot of light. So much that it’s kind of annoying. Any item you ‘enchant’ this way would need to be a radiant item of some kind and need to have some other effects to pull off. Kind of tough. *

Blinding enemies - Targetting someone's goggles obviously will blind them, but with this logical exception, it is very difficult to blind someone with Light. At best, it could be a diversion casting it on the enemy's crossbow bolt just before they fire or something.

#3 Jan 23, 2011 11:08:44

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Ghost Sound

This cantrip is often difficult to use without a lot of creativity. This is largely because while the sounds you can create are only limited by volume it requires and often what matters is the specific sound you create. The fact it takes a standard action for the wizard version also detracts from how useful it is in combat.

Pros

Gnomes get this power as a minor action per encounter. This enhances its use in combat but limits you to short distractions or ‘bursts’

The whispering effect is very handy as you can control who hears it

Not much in the game stops sound, and a ‘fighting creature’ can be heard for a long ways.

Long range of 10 squares

Cons

Standard action to use – limits you to one move per turn and no attacks (unless you are a gnome)

One round duration

Loud sounds can attract unwanted attention. Crafty or simply realistic DMs can bring things into the current situation which you wouldn’t otherwise have to deal with.

The source of the sound cannot move throughout the round. It can be difficult to mimic a moving creature, for instance.

Tricks

‘One Round Duration’ can also be interpreted as ‘Standard Action to Maintain’. All you do is continue the sound from one round to the other. Out of combat, this is usually a must.

Sound goes around corners, so while the square of origin needs to be in range the sound can travel much further distances around corners, through doors, over hills, and more unlike other powers.

Sounds work better when the intended targets cannot see as they rely only on hearing. If a creature has blindsight, just mimic airborne sounds and you tend to do well too.

If a skill check is required to use the cantrip this way, it is noted with ‘*’.

Combat uses

Make a sudden boom at the other side of the room, then have the party charge in while they are distracted *

Drawing the guard to a louder battle than yours- should buy you a round or two *

Make loud noise to cover the sounds of the party sneaking into ambush *

Make sound of someone approaching in front of your party to spring an ambush early

Bluff your party is larger than it is by making sounds of backup coming down the hall or around a corner. You can also bluff that there is a sniper by having ‘him’ make a sound on command to prove he is there (whistle, bird sound) *

If you just split the enemy and you know which one was the leader, you can send false orders to the other team. (ex. ‘It’s a trap! Watch the flank!’, ‘The wizard isn’t over here - FIND HIM!’ etc.) Conflicting messages may work just as well. *

Non-Combat uses

One-way communication. Just whisper into someone’s ear as long as they aren’t adjacent to too many creatures.

Entice a person into another area with an alluring voice, interesting noise, or a threat *

Make your party seem larger than it is by adding sounds of party members outside a room that can’t be seen. *

Change your voice into something different, but maybe not mimicking a specific voice (see questionable uses) *

By constantly making other confusing sounds (replaying words, speaking babble), you can effectively negate someone’s speech by rendering it unintelligible

For the non-skilled, keep mimicking the alarm from a distance (ex. a bell) until the guards stop listening for it. You can then trigger the alarm and not get caught

Make someone’s space make noises to get them in trouble. Works really well for cloaked, dark people as it’s hard to prove they didn’t do it.

It takes time and good trailing skills, but slowly drive someone to think they are mad by constantly whispering to them.

Make a mundane object seem to have special properties by making sounds (ex. extremely soft screams from an ornate jar, sound of the sea from a pearl, etc)

If you aren’t very good with words, mimic a sound and send it to the party member who isn’t close enough to hear. Even amplify it to make it easier.

If hidden, keep yourself ‘talking’ as you run away. Usually buys you one round of running, two if you are a gnome (minor action instead of standard)

Questionable uses

Mimicking Voices – The power says nothing about how specific the sound can be, so in theory any voice you can think of can be created flawlessly. Often a bluff skill or the like needs to be rolled to mimic a specific voice as part of a disguise, though.

Talking while gagged – 4th ed doesn’t have somatic or verbal components, so technically this works. Some DMs won’t allow this on principal, though. It could explain why your cultist-wizard can talk so clearly with that full-face mask on all the time however.

Transferring language – If you can take a sound and mimic it in a different location, you might be able to do the same with a language you don’t understand to another party member. There would definitely be die rolls involved, but at least some portion would be useful. Even one round of something obviously important could be sent and be very useful (‘stop- check for traps first’ vs. ‘count to three, then attack’ )

Music and mixing sounds - The description doesn’t define how complex your sound can be, but all of the examples are from one object/voice making sounds. Most DMs allow you to make complex sounds like your own theme music, but once you start trying to mimic four specific people playing cards with moving chairs and sloshing tankards, you are pushing your luck.

#4 Jan 23, 2011 11:08:58

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Mage Hand

Mage Hand is the often most reliable cantrip as nearly anyone can understand the effect and works cleanly with the laws of physics (...mostly). It can be especially useful in combat as even wizards get a fair number of minor actions to spare, while others (especially martial characters) could expect to use it every round if they want.

Roleplaying-wise, this is a power that apprentices should be using constantly for concentration training as it can last as long as you want and wouldn't disrupt other actions. Wizards must be able to use every action they get.

Pros

Easy to understand – hard to misinterpret

Minor action to conjure, with built-in ability to move something 5 squares.

Can be sustained with a minor action indefinitely (more than 5 minutes, the limit of most powers)

Conjurations are immune to environmental effects (water/acid, lightning storms)

The hand can never be grappled or held, so if your hands are occupied you can still do things that require a hand to accomplish.

There is no written limitation that it cannot hinder creatures or cannot affect ‘attended’ items like Prestigitation.

Cons

Move action to move the hand after you conjure it

Limited to one hand at a time (but see tricks)

The hand is visible and obviously magical, though you may be able to tweak the appearance

Limit of 20 lbs lifting capacity (4 strength)

Cannot activate magical items at a distance

Cannot feel through the hand

Tricks

It actually takes less actions to make a new mage hand and ‘transfer’ an item from another hand in order to move it (minor action) than to move the hand from round to round (minor to maintain, move to move it). To keep it simple, your DM can just rule that maintaining the hand allows you to move it 5 squares, though.

If you use two minor actions, you can move a hand 10 squares by creating a second hand (see above). This could be handy when you get an extra minor action for somehow but your move action is already taken.

If you can carry 20 lbs, you should be able to drag more than that. This gets into tricky territory as the hand doesn't have a 'light' and 'heavy' capacity. This results in a range of 40-200 lbs per hand.

The Staff of Spectral Hands (AV) allows a wizard with decent wisdom to create multiple hands. This opens more options as each hand can carry 20 lbs. 5 hands x 20 lb = a normal sized Halfling or a small anvil. This can be equivalent to having an unseen servant but with no daily ritual cost.

Note: If a skill check is required to use the cantrip this way, it is noted with ‘*’.

Combat uses

Switching hand-held items is twice as fast with the hand- it can stow and ready an item with a minor action instead of one or the other.

If you are a Bonded Summoner, the hand counts as a conjuration and therefore allows you to teleport with a minor action at will.

Get an item from/to an ally in combat. Particularly useful with healing potions or thrown weapons that get lost when used at heroic levels.

Keep an item away from others by lifting it 5 squares up. The Artifact of Super Bad Evilness is useless if theycan’t reach it. Also removes most aura effects coming from it.

Sabotage the enemy before combat from a distance (glue in scabbards, hide items behind tables, tie their laces together) *

Hold up a light wicker or paper screen so someone can get concealment or even superior concealment (most screens can be 3-4’ wide and less than 10 lbs total). Carry several of them around as they tend to get destroyed easily but this won't work in med-high winds.

General distractions (splash water, slide objects to make noise, punch a wall) to allow others to hide or get surprise

If a doorway can’t be closed, holding a staff, post, or other obstacle in the doorway can hamper movement (probably one square of difficult terrain, or minor action to remove)

If your familiar is in danger but it moves slowly (toad, unable to fly), move them faster

Silently point out the location of someone hiding

Swipe around for invisible creatures. If a creature is in any of the 5 squares it covers, the hand will stop because it cannot occupy enemy squares. It's visible to everybody too. Use your move action and you can sweep 10 squares per turn. If you have the Staff of Spectral Hands, the area you can cover is simply ridiculous.

If there is a large flat object (plywood, body shield), you can prop it up and use it to hide or get superior cover. This might push the weight limit with any pressure, though.

Holding up a large shield can make a battlefield obstacle for the enemy. It could prevent charges from dazed creatures (takes a move action to go around).

Pickpocket the enemy’s stowed weapon or ammunition. Pickpocketing is a standard action, but there are few defenses against it. Note you may need a minor action to get the item away from the target, or it just stays in that square.

Counteract any enemy use of Mage Hand

Buy a wicker or sedan chair and use it for an obstacle. Using mage hand to distribute debris is sub-optimal since diagonal movement usually avoids one square easily. An actual obstacle prevents diagonal movement entirely, and can also be used for cover in a pinch. Sure, they can knock over the chair or attack it, but that costs actions and you can set it back up with a minior action.

Non-Combat uses

Pull the mysterious lever or push the red button… and plan on surviving it

Doing general work without lifting a finger

Plug a hole… temporarily. But the hole could be spewing acid and the hand is unaffected.

Open or close doors or containers

Hold a reading book up

Hold a door shut- this won’t stop most creatures, but it will stop them from opening it stealthily. Release at the right time to make it socially awkward

Give a massage to yourself. You deserve it (better with multiple hands –see tricks)

Arcane high-fives!

Instant rack or item holder. You can even raise it to the ceiling for protection.

Getting the above item(s) back down, or off of a tall shelf

Grope the barmaid/patron/etc. While you won’t be able to feel the touch, the side-effects are usually hilarious when done right. *

Constantly move a wheel for various uses (arcane perpetual motion machine)

Unlocking doors, setting off known traps, pickpocketing, and general thievery from a safe distance*

For traps you don’t see, roll a bowling ball or a heavy log around on the floor from a distance. Usually faster than searching for the trap in the end.

Some tripwires are only set off by a fair amount of force. Your hand can quickly sweep for them in a round or two but will stop if it hits one.

Assuming you have any control of the hand’s appearance, you can effectively mimic the ‘Hand of Fate’ ritual. This nets both the ritual cost and the ability to control the party/others through your answers *

Hold a large mirror in front of you to see around corners.

Hold a straw man or small dead creature far ahead of the party to trigger ambushes too early.

Carry your torch or light 25’ ahead. Unless a creature has low-light vision, this will put you in the ‘shadowy concealment’ range for defense, and illuminates things up to 25’ further away from you.

With enough hands (other party members or the Staff of Spectral Hands), you can effectively levitate very light party members at will. A party of Halflings or Gnomes can really get some use out of this.

Hold up an object and treat it like a familiar (skull in particular)

Poke someone from behind and threaten them with your ‘stealthy rogue’. Better when using a dagger, then using ghost sound or other effect to make it more believable. *

Draw a message in the dirt from a distance to communicate

Threaten someone or their allies with a dangerous item or material the hand holds. For instance, an item that damages with an aura, or green slime/glob of poison above a prisoner- if they kill you they or the prisoner ‘gets it’ instantly. Also handy as a getaway trick since you can be 25’ away.

Communicate through hand signals at a distance or around corners

Create a hump-back as part of your disguise. You can dispel it instantly as a cover.

Slap mud on a monster. Combine that with the ‘light’ cantrip as now they ‘have’ an object to target (see light cantrip post).

Wake someone up if sleeping. You can even have fun with it and drop something heavy since they are helpless

It may look weird, but it can function like glue or nails to hold something against a wall while you concentrate. Posters, plywood, even a staff. If used to block a doorway (ex. shield held across frame), it can be very annoying to remove.

A summoned hand is sterile. Might be handy for field surgery.

Counteract the bouyancy of many common objects (rope, chunks of wood, hollow pottery). With multiple hands, you could hold something big down. Like a bound person.

Palm an item. Sounds strange, but if you have all these spectral hands hangina around all the time there is no reason for people to think you have something small hidden in it at any moment. Plus, you don't lie when you say 'it isn't on you'

Questionable uses

Distract in combat – Though you cannot attack and Str 4 is not enough to move most creatures, it should be annoying to have a hand keep grabbing your cloak, untying your shoes, have a dagger clumsily be shoved to your face, etc. Arguably, this would be like a bluff check to feint once per combat and would therefore take both a skill check and a standard action.

3rd hand when bound – By rules, there are no somatic components so using a mage hand to untie your ropes or when you literally can’t move is legal. Previous editions required somatic components, though so people don’t think this is possible. From a story perspective, your DM may rely on your group being bound up and it is always dangerous to damage the plot. Then again, you can't feel through the hand, so if they are bound behind you don't expect some quick escape.

Catch a returning weapon – With a readied action, theoretically a returning weapon can be grabbed before it returns to the owner because it is no longer ‘attended’. This happens less in 4th edition, but that also means they won’t have multiple magical weapons to lose.

Arcane healer – by using a hand to move items to others, it stands to reason you should be able to pour a potion down a dying creature’s throat. Technically, this works but some DMs may argue that this may not be possible (ex. laying face down, mouth could be closed)

Drop a rock on ‘em– Dropping a 20-lb rock/poison glob/alchemic item/fresh sheep’s bladder into someone’s square has effects. Usually, this gets limited to large creatures or splash weapons only but sometimes this can be very effective (quick distraction, flour to find the invisible enemy through his tracks, etc.)

Flight at will - I'm only adding this because it can be argued - most DMs will just throw dice at you. If each hand can carry 20 lbs, and you are a very light creature (ex. a gnome), technically you can use several hands from a staff of spectral hands to levitate yourself as a minor action. This would require the staff, being a small creature (probably a gnome), a bag of holding for your things, and a very serious diet for lower levels, but theoretically possible. The best argument against it was that this requires grapping yourself (yeah- read the posts), taking an extra standard action and leaving you with CA- but you will never have to climb again.

#5 Jan 23, 2011 11:14:22

alphathegreat

Joined Mar 2008

1545 Posts

The Munchkin Fallacy The Theoretical Optimization Manifesto Modularity: A Guide to CO Tricks and Tactics Ultimate Defenders

I am Alpha, and I endorse this thread.

My builds

Darth Vader, Ultimate Defender, Swordmage|Warlock/Avernian Knight Thunderstruck, Striking Swordmage The Defenderlock Arcane Slasher --nerfed Nightcrawler, a Shift Slasher build --nerfed

#6 Jan 23, 2011 11:18:34

Nausicaa

Joined Feb 2006

3178 Posts

Really looking forward for nice ideas. Actually i always use my cantrips, at least every time i can ^^

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

#7 Jan 23, 2011 11:48:23

Krika

Joined Nov 2009

777 Posts

I agree about this thread.

Take a look at my Handbook: The Pet Store: A Familiar Keeper's Handbook Nacht: "Vecna can do ANYTHING given preptime. He's like an undead lich god Batman."

Pokemon Nuzlocke Version

#8 Jan 23, 2011 12:27:06

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

... I have a lot more editing to do.... ::sigh::

This is intended both as a guide and as a place to add on ideas or debate some questionable calls. I'm sure people have done some other tricks with these powers.

Prestigitation coming, but I'm going to make sure this thread is stable before I tackle that mess.

#9 Jan 23, 2011 13:36:49

awaken_D_M_golem

Joined Dec 2006

3078 Posts

Niice.

Distract in combat – Though you cannot attack and Str 4 is not enough to move most creatures, it should be annoying to have a hand keep grabbing your cloak, untying your shoes, have a dagger clumsily be shoved to your face, etc. Arguably, this would be like a bluff check to feint once per combat and would therefore take both a skill check and a standard action.

Show up at a party with the Hand constantly fixing your suit to look even Natty-er.

3rd hand when bound – By rules, there are no somatic components so using a mage hand to untie your ropes or when you literally can’t move is legal. Previous editions required somatic components, though so people don’t think this is possible. From a story perspective, your DM may rely on your group being bound up and it is always dangerous to damage the plot.

I like it. From a story perspective, the King wants the party tied up ... oops ! But don't tell the King he was wrong.

Catch a returning weapon – With a readied action, theoretically a returning weapon can be grabbed before it returns to the owner because it is no longer ‘attended’. This happens less in 4th edition, but that also means they won’t have multiple magical weapons to lose.

I don't like the readied action. I do like the possibility of switching weapons, instead of dropping one.

Arcane healer – by using a hand to move items to others, it stands to reason you should be able to pour a potion down a dying creature’s throat. Technically, this works but some DMs may argue that this may not be possible (ex. laying face down, mouth could be closed)

I like it. Action economy rules.

Drop a rock on ‘em– The hand can’t attack, but dropping a 20-lb rock/poison glob/alchemic item/fresh sheep’s bladder into someone’s square has effects. Usually, this gets limited to large creatures or splash weapons only but sometimes this can be very effective (quick distraction, flour to find the invisible enemy through his tracks, etc.)

Or an Alchemical item.

Good stuff ... but why should the "thread" be stable (wink).

*** Wizards will be shutting down the forums and deleting information/threads, effective October 29, 2015. ***

Pray for my-kitty-avatar's Tail , and the tail MIGHT pray for you.

#10 Jan 24, 2011 13:53:22

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Well, no so much 'stable' as 'I'm not updating or cleaning up formatting all the time'.

Prestigitation makes this list green with envy. It's hard to organize it and leave space for the questionable uses or other judgement calls that have come up with just myself and not with everyone else's ideas.

#11 Jan 24, 2011 14:09:59

Suzume_Stjohn

Joined Aug 2010

359 Posts

Think I might go ahead and do the Dark Sun psionic cantrips guide, I been messing around with a number of them. ;)

#12 Jan 25, 2011 6:29:09

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

That reminds me- if there are any guide makers out there, I wanted to place this up in The_Collective CharOp links thread but the login didn't work for me. Is there a trick I didn't read, or could someone help me out?

#13 Feb 15, 2011 15:23:49

The_Collective

Joined Jul 2008

184 Posts

That reminds me- if there are any guide makers out there, I wanted to place this up in The_Collective CharOp links thread but the login didn't work for me. Is there a trick I didn't read, or could someone help me out?

Added to the wizard section. Did you try to log in using email+password ? Works for me... (please don't try it now, i'm doing the monthly update...)

-SongNSilence

#14 Feb 15, 2011 15:28:16

mellored

Joined Jul 2008

29685 Posts

5e houserules and tweaks.

Did you try to log in using email+password ? Works for me... (please don't try it now, i'm doing the monthly update...)

-SongNSilence

Blah, that was my problem. I kept trying user+password.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides

List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Powers to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

my builds

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user. Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

#15 Feb 15, 2011 15:42:44

The_Collective

Joined Jul 2008

184 Posts

Did you try to log in using email+password ? Works for me... (please don't try it now, i'm doing the monthly update...)

-SongNSilence

Blah, that was my problem. I kept trying user+password.

Login=The_Collective was probably a leftover from the old forums (i think i remember logging in with my username instead of my email adress). Fixed it with correct information

#16 Feb 19, 2011 8:09:32

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Thank you, SongNSilence.

I just posted the Presdigitation sister thread to this one, so I suggest anyone who liked this one to check that one out as it needs a little more love and rules checking than these.

Also, I added moving a light wicker or sedan chair to the mage hand section today. A well made one could be just at 20 lbs (30-40 for the huge obnoxious, full concealment ones). They are evidently very tough and cheap to repair with a Make Whole ritual, but too bulky to allow a combatant in the same square and can't be jumped over easily at best so they are effectively a movable wall.

I plan on a wizard with a spectral hands staff who can move two of them around each round to 'remake' the battle map each round for my ranged allies. On top of that, it takes a very wise (arrogant... egotistical...) wizard to invent the Tactical Lounge Chair (TLC for short). Maybe I can add some evil-looking rattan spikes or something...

Keep dreaming, people.

#17 Feb 19, 2011 11:33:23

ankiyavon

Joined Dec 2009

4840 Posts

Thank you, SongNSilence.
Also, I added moving a light wicker or sedan chair to the mage hand section today. A well made one could be just at 20 lbs (30-40 for the huge obnoxious, full concealment ones). They are evidently very tough and cheap to repair with a Make Whole ritual, but too bulky to allow a combatant in the same square and can't be jumped over easily at best so they are effectively a movable wall.

If it's that light, what's stopping an enemy from kicking, grabbing, or shoving one out of the way?

As a DM, I'd say that it's at best a move action to do that, and possibly even a minor. Not to mention the ease of destroying one of them, but at least that sucks up an attack.

The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.

#18 Feb 20, 2011 8:00:58

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Just because it is light doesn't mean it is easy to move. Can you move a loveseat or recliner yourself? Yes, but only one side at a time - it takes two people even though it is only 100 lbs or so. A sedan chair is even more annoying without having two people working on it because it has poles that get in the way. A properly designed chair can become a nightmare to grab and push around.

I agree that a move action should be able to toss it out of the way (minor-maybe for giants or the like who woulcn't be affected anyhow). You still have to move up to it and then take the action to move it- effectively eating up that one attacker's turn. If they are right in front of it, you get rid of their move action and they have to charge instead of get multi-attacks. If they walk around it, they have to move further and it can create bottlenecks for your party fighter to plug.

Either way this is a net win for a minor action on my part and since they didn't attack it, I can set it back up every round if I want to. To attack it wastes their attacks and may not destroy it anyhow (wicker is extremely tough). Plus, it is blazingly cheap. 5gp could make a large chair that could last your entire career (and costs 1gp to repair with make whole)

This isn't anything powerful enough to win the day on it's own, but add in slow or daze effects and you just shut down one enemy this round without hindering your ranged allies. Not to mention directing the battlefield for your defenders just that much more. Beats the hell out of Mystic Debris and lets you keep Shield.

#19 Jun 28, 2011 23:01:12

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

This may be thread necromancy, but this thread is the best place for the following bit of munchkin shenanigans.

Here's another questionable use of Mage Hand:

Step 1: Be a Gnome.
Step 2: Weigh 50 pounds and have no more than ten pounds of gear for a total weight of 60 pounds or less.
Step 3: Be a Wizard or get level 4 Hedge Wizard Gloves to get Mage Hand at-will.
Step 4: Have a Wisdom stat of at least 14 (see step 5).
Step 5: Get a level 8 Staff of Spectral Hands +2 that conjures a number of additional Mage Hands equal to your Wis mod (max Staff bonus).
Step 6: Use Mage Hand to conjure three Mage Hands and sustain them all as a minor action each round.
Step 7: Have the three Mage Hands carry you everywhere (because they each can carry 20 pounds and you only weigh 60)

Cheers,
VK

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#20 Jun 30, 2011 6:33:48

Joined Jun 2003

146 Posts

This may be thread necromancy, but this thread is the best place for the following bit of munchkin shenanigans.

Here's another questionable use of Mage Hand:

Step 1: Be a Gnome.
Step 2: Weigh 50 pounds and have no more than ten pounds of gear for a total weight of 60 pounds or less.
Step 3: Be a Wizard or get level 4 Hedge Wizard Gloves to get Mage Hand at-will.
Step 4: Have a Wisdom stat of at least 14 (see step 5).
Step 5: Get a level 8 Staff of Spectral Hands +2 that conjures a number of additional Mage Hands equal to your Wis mod (max Staff bonus).
Step 6: Use Mage Hand to conjure three Mage Hands and sustain them all as a minor action each round.
Step 7: Have the three Mage Hands carry you everywhere (because they each can carry 20 pounds and you only weigh 60)

Cheers,
VK

Highly questionable if I recall correctly. Doesn't mage hand state that you can manipulate an object weighing up to a certain weight? If so, there is no mechanism for many of the 'tricks' often proposed for the cantrip to perform.

All we know is.....he's called The Sig

#21 Jun 30, 2011 9:32:31

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

Highly questionable if I recall correctly. Doesn't mage hand state that you can manipulate an object weighing up to a certain weight? If so, there is no mechanism for many of the 'tricks' often proposed for the cantrip to perform.

Here's my thinking:
1. Each Mage Hand can lift 20 pounds. "Minor Action: The hand picks up or manipulates an object weighing 20 pounds or less. It can hold only one object at a time."
2. A gnome can weigh 50-60 pounds which is ~3x20.
3. One Mage Hand can therefore lift 1/3 of a gnome.
4. Three Mage Hands can therefore lift 3/3 of a gnome or a whole gnome - especially when controlling their actions simultaneously with a Staff of Spectral Hands - "Property: When you use the mage hand power, you can conjure a number of hands equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1, maximum of 1 + the staff ’s enhancement bonus). You can sustain all of the hands each round with a single minor action."

And I agree, it's highly questionable. But not from a weight perspective. If I were a DM and a player tried playing this cheese at my table, I'd point out, "Okay, they lift your gnome, but you need three move actions to move all three hands. You can sustain them all with a single minor, but you need three move actions to actually move." That would make movement an impossibility (without an action point). The only highly-situational utility I see for this is if a gnome prepared an interrupt action in case of a fall (off a cliff, down a pit, etc.), and he conjures his three Mage Hands to catch him. He can't move, but he's no longer falling.

Wait. I just had an idea. If two of the mage hands each grabbed a leg, and if the third grabbed under an arm, the gnome could move two mage hands each round with his two move actions and slowly cartwheel through the air. One mage hand remains stationary while the other two rotate around the stationary mage hand. Then one of the hands that just moved remains stationary while the other tow continue the rotation.

A gnome doing slow cartwheels through the air as soon as he can buy a level 2 Staff of Spectral Hands. That has enough goofy flavor to it that I just might allow that as a DM.

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#22 Jun 30, 2011 10:24:33

Joined Jun 2003

146 Posts

It doesn't work. The gnome weighs more than 20 pounds, therefore cannot be lifted by a mage hand (or even 100 mage hands working together). The wording is most specific.

If you chopped the gnome into three equal pieces it would work.

All we know is.....he's called The Sig

#23 Jun 30, 2011 11:06:00

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

It doesn't work. The gnome weighs more than 20 pounds, therefore cannot be lifted by a mage hand (or even 100 mage hands working together). The wording is most specific. If you chopped the gnome into three equal pieces it would work.

Nah. The power's still too ambiguously-worded in my mind. Individual DMs would still need to be the arbiters on this. I'll try to explain more where I'm coming from, and if I'm just missing something completely, please let me know. I'll phrase my thinking in a series of questions and implications:

Can a mage hand pick up and manipulate a 20-pound object that is somehow connected to another 20-pound object?

For instance, say there were two lead balls of 18 pounds each and they were connected by a two-pound chain. Could one mage hand pick up one 18-pound stone while another mage hand picked up the other 18-pound stone?

By your reading of the mage hand power, it would seem that the two lead balls and the connecting chain would all comprise one large 38-pound object rather than three objects, so it would be impossible for the mage hand to lift anything that was in any way connected to any other object (if the total weight of all objects were more than 20 pounds).

So, if a character wanted to use a mage hand to untie the rope that's securing a portcullis, The portion of rope that is actually tied in a knot is only about 15 pounds. Would untying the rope be impossible the total weight of the rope and the portcullis it's connected to is a lot more than 20 pounds?

Or if a character wanted to use mage hand to push open the gate of a garden fence (say a small picket gate that in and of itself weighed 15 pounds, but it's connected via hinges to an entire fence that would weigh at least a few hundred pounds in total), would it be impossible to move that gate?

Or, what if a 200-pound boulder were teetering on the edge of a cliff, and all it would take would be the gentlest nudge to send it toppling over? I'm thinking something like a little tap - something less than a pound of pressure. Would it be impossible for the mage hand to provide that tiny little tap because the boulder is ten times heavier than the maximum size of an object that a mage hand can manipulate?

So, are you asserting that the mage hand power really CANNOT do any of the actions I just listed?

If that is your assertion, it's honestly kind of an odd reading of the power.

If that is not your assertion, then the question becomes, "What sort of physical connections would we allow between objects that would or would not affect the actions of the mage hand power?" Would we be okay with objects being connected by a rope? A chain? A hinge? A ball and socket? Muscle and tendon?

And those questions are not explicitly answerable in the mage hand power description and would be up to individual DMs to answer at their own tables.

Thoughts?

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#24 Jun 30, 2011 11:32:22

Joined Jun 2003

146 Posts

If you chop up the gnome into three parts and connect them by string then you could lift them with 5 mage hands.

Regarding the specific questions you ask, in most cases these are separate objects connected by some other object, so no problem. The boulder example is not possible under the wording of the spell. The boulder weighs more than 20lbs and therefore cannot be lifted or manipulated in any way by the mage hand.

As I understand it, you are abandoning the argument that you can sum the 20lbs 'lift' of multiple mage hands to lift a (say) 60lb object with three mage hands; replacing it with the argument that a living gnome can be considered multiple objects because it is somehow articulated or made up of individual parts?

Good luck with that one

All we know is.....he's called The Sig

#25 Jun 30, 2011 11:59:03

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

Not abandoning - just clarifying. And in two of the examples (the lead balls with chain and the gate hinged to the rest of the fence), the connections are permanent parts of the object. Indeed, a chain welded to a lead ball would be a tougher connection to break than the muscle/bone/ligament connections that comprise a gnome's torso. If two lead balls at either end of a welded chain are made up of separate parts then so is a gnome. And if multiple mage hands can lift the two lead balls and chain then they can lift a gnome. No luck needed in that sort of reasoning.

And, are there any other takers out there on the issue of pushing an object with just one pound of force regardless of the weight of the object? Are we really going to read the mage hand power as that limited?

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#26 Jun 30, 2011 12:21:38

Joined Jun 2003

146 Posts

Not abandoning - just clarifying. And in two of the examples (the lead balls with chain and the gate hinged to the rest of the fence), the connections are permanent parts of the object. Indeed, a chain welded to a lead ball would be a tougher connection to break than the muscle/bone/ligament connections that comprise a gnome's torso. If two lead balls at either end of a welded chain are made up of separate parts then so is a gnome. And if multiple mage hands can lift the two lead balls and chain then they can lift a gnome. No luck needed in that sort of reasoning.

And, are there any other takers out there on the issue of pushing an object with just one pound of force regardless of the weight of the object? Are we really going to read the mage hand power as that limited?

If the ball/chain combination is manufactured as an object with a purpose then I'd say it can't be lifted. Your example didn't make that clear. If it were two balls tied together with chain then you could manipulate each object independently no problem. I'd consider the chain a single object for mage hand purposes (rather than a series of individual links).

I can't see how a gate is a part of a fence any more than a door is part of a wall. I don't see that this moves your argument forward. I have no problem that an object joined to another different object by a hinge can be treated as an object rather than a whole, if that seems appropriate. A door has a different purpose to a wall, a gate has a different purpose to a fence. Where the hinges are a part of a single articulated object then I'd rule the object was one single object. I'd say you could lift a pile of components that make up a suit of plate armour with multiple mage hands, but once laced together, the same objects are not manipulable. Mage hand is magic not physics.

I fully accept that this is a question of interpretation, and would defend a DM's right to rule either way on all the above cases as it requires a ruling on what constitutes an 'object' in some deliberately difficult cases.

Irrespective of the above, for your gnome to be lifted it has to be considered multiple objects. That's the case you need to make. Go ahead.

All we know is.....he's called The Sig

#27 Jun 30, 2011 21:08:28

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Hyperlogical arguments and game lore... wow, you gotta love it. Yes, you picked the right thread (and the right game for that matter) for this foolishness.

Like all rule calls, you have to be rediculously careful with this. If you decide that links in a chain are one object and therefore can't be moved together, heaven help you when you realize that clothing is made of thousands of strands of hair. Or the opposite, where since you can move that link, you can also move the 200 lb lead ball that is attached to it since you are only moving one object of less than 20 lbs.

::putting on Reasonable DM hat::

Since any DM worth his salt won't want flying gnomes at least before epic levels (when flying carpets are normal) we want to prevent this. Just preventing it entirely is a little wrong, though. Especially when it takes using a very specific item, race, and ability score combination to pull off.

Check out the actual weight of your gear, to start. Cloth armor is 4 lbs, a standard gear pack is 44. Even if you get a bag of holding (another required item), you then still have the problem of trying to grab and hold a creature. Sounds like an attack roll and taking a standard action to maintain the grab to me.

This makes it possible with a level 13 staff, 16 wisdom, and a standard + minor action per round. Maybe a lower level staff if you like to streak through the air- literally. Sounds fair, just don't get dazed or worse and you won't drop either. Say, how many creatures do that?

Or I can just rule that 'creature <> object' and it only works if you get petrified. Into pumice.

::/reasonable DM hat::

The best ruling is one that maintains the same level of reality throughout the game world. In Eberron I would see much more freedom, while in Birthright or Ravenloft (yes, I played a while) this should be seriously frowned upon. I have been playing with my Tactical Desk and Lounge Chair of Imposition religiously and it has been handy but not game breaking.

#28 Jul 01, 2011 16:01:29

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

I've been thinking along the lines of having a Wizard who lugs around a heavy shield (finding a different interesting shield-like item has produced no results so far) for his mage hand to carry in combat. I'd have it float in the square in front of me.

By RAI/logic, this should give me minor cover against ranged attacks, and none against melee since they can just wander around it (the hand occupies a square, so it works as an obstacle on its own doesn't it?). I figure it won't give pretty much the entire battlefield cover from me, because i assume the hand can move about in its square without requiring an action from me, so i'd just move it out of the way if i want to cast a spell.

Anyway, even if it doesn't work in combat, it'd be great for fluff/impressing people.

On the rule debate; Assuming the hand can carry anything that's less than 20lb regardless of what's attached to it leads to some interesting gimmicks. You could have it hold up 50ft of rope and climb it for an overview of the area, or have it carry cages filled with monsters (cages don't have weight, according to my CB).

Oh also, the hand can hold liquids. Discuss.

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#29 Jul 01, 2011 21:39:19

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

Dude, you rock. I love the 20 pounds of rope example. It's a perfect example of why I think the DM is gonna have to be God on what the 20 pounds limit for mage hand means. Indeed, that example greatly simplifies my flying gnome gimmick. Simply have the mage hand hold a staff (which weighs way less than 20 pounds) then have your PC hold on to the staff as he moves the mage hand around. Maybe require an Athletics check to make sure the PC doesn't let go. Voila: flying PC at level 1.

And liquids?!! That's freaking brilliant. I love char op folk.

edit: typos

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#30 Jul 02, 2011 2:29:35

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

I just noticed that tents are 20lb, no need for perception to keep watch at night if you can just have your mage hand lift the tent into the air! Well, that is assuming one tent is big enough to hold all your companions/you can convince all your companions to sit in one tent.

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#31 Jul 03, 2011 15:50:52

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

Voila: flying PC at level 1.

And liquids?!! That's freaking brilliant. I love char op folk.

edit: typos

Um, keep it real. Like I said in the first posting all of the cantrips are subject to DM approval, and you can expect a DM to rule out anything that is either 1) logically painful, or2) game breaking.

Flying Gnomes is #2 material, but easily killed off in various ways above. Note, you can't pull off even your example unless your DM is letting you take far more powerful items than you should - which means you are 'broken' before you start.

Carrying liquids without a container is #1 material. That is, unless the amount is so small that you can carry it on your palm anyhow (poisons or some magical liquids maybe). No DM is going to let you carry 20 lbs of water for any reason this way - the cantrip brings up a HAND that can carry things.

As far as Tetracide's idea of a shield, that is the direction I was going with my rattaan furniture character. Heavy shields could easily give cover, be used one-handed, and weigh less than 20 lbs. so they are probably the best legal choice. Your hand doesn't take up space and can be moved through by enemies, though. So at best that square would be considered difficult terrain which isn't all that problematic in all but the rarest situations.

The ideal object is extremely light (20 lbs), cheap (so you can repair it with a spell), and actually takes up a space which forces creatures to either change their movements or spend an action to swat it away (even a minor action in the middle of a 4 square move forces the enemy to charge to finish that move). I looked at bags of hay, potted plants, and other objects but a large but very light chair would stop movement but could be moved constantly. It is also rather resilient so it could survive a fair amount of damage before being destroyed, and purchased at any town if it gets seriously destroyed.

#32 Jul 03, 2011 17:02:55

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

Your hand doesn't take up space and can be moved through by enemies, though.

Doesn't it? My RAI was that it (since it requires an unoccupied space to summon in, and it can actually hold stuff) isn't insubstantial. Also, i'm looking at the PHB version so i might be ignoring numerous errata.

Anyway i picked the shield mostly for flavour reasons, hiding behind a floating shield is slightly more impressive than hiding behind a floating chair. Also you can probably use it to intimidate people in some way, or at least as a portable table to drink beer on.

I also picked up that floating disc ritual for moar floaty stuff, just because i can. Maybe you could do another section on interesting uses of that ritual (or other gimmicky rituals)?

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#33 Jul 03, 2011 18:42:05

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

It does. That was an errata that someone pointed out to me- otherwise you could make a conjuration character based around making obstacles to the point that enemies can't move.

Shields definitely have some advantages, but I liked the flavor reasons- my character is a forcibly retired aged professor who has a lounge chair that he sits in whenever possible 'for his back'. Especially, if they become an obstacle according to the DM, a shield is strictly more legal since it is in the PH.

I think there is a thread for Tenser's Disk in a separate forum.

#34 Jul 04, 2011 4:09:47

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

It does. That was an errata that someone pointed out to me- otherwise you could make a conjuration character based around making obstacles to the point that enemies can't move.

Shields definitely have some advantages, but I liked the flavor reasons- my character is a forcibly retired aged professor who has a lounge chair that he sits in whenever possible 'for his back'. Especially, if they become an obstacle according to the DM, a shield is strictly more legal since it is in the PH.

I think there is a thread for Tenser's Disk in a separate forum.

Love the flavor. Sadly, it probably won't really work on my genasi blaster Wizard. ;)

True on the mage hand, does make sense. I'd like to find the errata some time though, so if you happen to stumble upon it, give me a prod.

Thinking about other interesting things the hand can carry about, i wonder if there is something like a spectral eye, you could use it to spy on things!

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#35 Jul 04, 2011 9:25:12

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

Um, keep it real. Like I said in the first posting all of the cantrips are subject to DM approval, and you can expect a DM to rule out anything that is either 1) logically painful, or2) game breaking.

Flying Gnomes is #2 material, but easily killed off in various ways above. Note, you can't pull off even your example unless your DM is letting you take far more powerful items than you should - which means you are 'broken' before you start.

Carrying liquids without a container is #1 material. That is, unless the amount is so small that you can carry it on your palm anyhow (poisons or some magical liquids maybe). No DM is going to let you carry 20 lbs of water for any reason this way - the cantrip brings up a HAND that can carry things.

I think we can agree that rule zero rules the roost, which is part of what I was trying to argue for above.

But don't give up on a level 8 flying gnome just yet (or at least on a level 8 clumsy-suspended-in-mid-air gnome). He keeps everything in a bag of holding except his clothes and his staff (<60 lbs total weight). The gnome keeps his staff attached to his belt via a thick leather strap. Then he conjures three mage hands (one via Mage Hand, two via Staff of Spectral Hands). Have the three mage hands grab the staff itself (the kind of thing they do all the time when they're stowing and retrieving objects, so no attack check needed there). The gnome hangs from the staff via the strap on his belt. To remain upright while hanging from his belt on the staff, it makes perfect sense to require the gnome to make an athletics or acrobatics check (perhaps every single round while aloft). If he fails a check, he loses his center of gravity/balance on the staff and flails in the air suspended by his belt (at which point he's "helpless" until he makes another successful athletics/acrobatics check). The gnome situates the mage hands with one in the middle of the staff and one at either end of the staff. To move, he alternates between moving either end of the staff (moving only the mage hand on one end and the one in the middle each round). Moving this way, one end of the staff stays stationary while the other end moves. But the farthest he can move one end of the staff is 180 degrees from where it was before. Assuming a 5-foot staff, this means one square of movement while using two move actions to slowly shimmy the staff up, down, or side to side. The gnome's speed would be 1 square per turn in any direction. And since he's required to make constant athletics or acrobatics checks, I'd say it's reasonable to label his flight as "clumsy" which nets the gnome a -4 to all defenses and attacks. And since he's spending a minor to sustain the hands, and two moves to slowly move the staff, he cannot attack unless he stays still or he uses an action point.

So in actual game play at level 8, this gives the gnome fly (hover, clumsy), speed 1 (per two move actions + 1 minor action), with the requirement to make an athletics/acrobatics check (DC set by DM) at the beginning of each turn or else he is helpless until he successfully makes the same athletics/acrobatics check at the beginning of his next turn.

Now you'd have to be a player-hating DM to call that game-breaking.

As for the liquids (beyond the outside-of-the-box coolness of it), I agree that hardly any DM would allow carrying liquids, but I think the reasonable constraints are not along the lines of the "HAND" qualities of the spell (after all, this is a magic universe in which the same wizard can cast a ritual that allows folks to walk on water). Rather, I believe the only reasonable route a DM can take is to be strict in interpreting the ambiguous terms "picks up or manipulates" in the Mage Hand power description. For instance, splashing 20 pounds of water out of a barrel is both lifting and manipulating even if it isn't all the lifting and manipulating that the player hoped to do. So, what I'm saying is that the DM can nerf Mage Hand at any time - not because of what counts as 20 pounds or what is analogous to the function of an actual hand but because of the inherent ambiguity in the actions described in the power description.

So I think we may be coming to similar conclusions - just arriving there by different pathways.

Cheers, VK

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#36 Jul 04, 2011 10:25:15

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

As another interesting issue, can mage hands be moved? Do they have weight? As in, could you use one mage hand to lift another mage hand? Or, the more logical thing i thought of: If you have a staff being held by three hands, two on the ends and one in the middle, and you move the ones on the end in a random direction (together, or apart) what would happen to the staff/other mage hands?

Would:
a) The staff break?
b) Every mage hand move move the staff?
c) The staff stay stationary?
d) Other:

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#37 Jul 05, 2011 6:08:49

Joined Jun 2003

146 Posts

Um, keep it real. Like I said in the first posting all of the cantrips are subject to DM approval, and you can expect a DM to rule out anything that is either 1) logically painful, or2) game breaking.

Flying Gnomes is #2 material, but easily killed off in various ways above. Note, you can't pull off even your example unless your DM is letting you take far more powerful items than you should - which means you are 'broken' before you start.

Carrying liquids without a container is #1 material. That is, unless the amount is so small that you can carry it on your palm anyhow (poisons or some magical liquids maybe). No DM is going to let you carry 20 lbs of water for any reason this way - the cantrip brings up a HAND that can carry things.

I think we can agree that rule zero rules the roost, which is part of what I was trying to argue for above.

But don't give up on a level 8 flying gnome just yet (or at least on a level 8 clumsy-suspended-in-mid-air gnome). He keeps everything in a bag of holding except his clothes and his staff (<60 lbs total weight). The gnome keeps his staff attached to his belt via a thick leather strap. Then he conjures three mage hands (one via Mage Hand, two via Staff of Spectral Hands). Have the three mage hands grab the staff itself (the kind of thing they do all the time when they're stowing and retrieving objects, so no attack check needed there). The gnome hangs from the staff via the strap on his belt. To remain upright while hanging from his belt on the staff, it makes perfect sense to require the gnome to make an athletics or acrobatics check (perhaps every single round while aloft). If he fails a check, he loses his center of gravity/balance on the staff and flails in the air suspended by his belt (at which point he's "helpless" until he makes another successful athletics/acrobatics check). The gnome situates the mage hands with one in the middle of the staff and one at either end of the staff. To move, he alternates between moving either end of the staff (moving only the mage hand on one end and the one in the middle each round). Moving this way, one end of the staff stays stationary while the other end moves. But the farthest he can move one end of the staff is 180 degrees from where it was before. Assuming a 5-foot staff, this means one square of movement while using two move actions to slowly shimmy the staff up, down, or side to side. The gnome's speed would be 1 square per turn in any direction. And since he's required to make constant athletics or acrobatics checks, I'd say it's reasonable to label his flight as "clumsy" which nets the gnome a -4 to all defenses and attacks. And since he's spending a minor to sustain the hands, and two moves to slowly move the staff, he cannot attack unless he stays still or he uses an action point.

So in actual game play at level 8, this gives the gnome fly (hover, clumsy), speed 1 (per two move actions + 1 minor action), with the requirement to make an athletics/acrobatics check (DC set by DM) at the beginning of each turn or else he is helpless until he successfully makes the same athletics/acrobatics check at the beginning of his next turn.

Now you'd have to be a player-hating DM to call that game-breaking.

As for the liquids (beyond the outside-of-the-box coolness of it), I agree that hardly any DM would allow carrying liquids, but I think the reasonable constraints are not along the lines of the "HAND" qualities of the spell (after all, this is a magic universe in which the same wizard can cast a ritual that allows folks to walk on water). Rather, I believe the only reasonable route a DM can take is to be strict in interpreting the ambiguous terms "picks up or manipulates" in the Mage Hand power description. For instance, splashing 20 pounds of water out of a barrel is both lifting and manipulating even if it isn't all the lifting and manipulating that the player hoped to do. So, what I'm saying is that the DM can nerf Mage Hand at any time - not because of what counts as 20 pounds or what is analogous to the function of an actual hand but because of the inherent ambiguity in the actions described in the power description.

So I think we may be coming to similar conclusions - just arriving there by different pathways.

Cheers, VK

The staff is still tethered to something (the Gnome). Nothing in the spell description allows you to move beyond the limits of any physical constraint on the object. It's a fail.

All we know is.....he's called The Sig

#38 Jul 05, 2011 11:30:16

monkeygentleman

Joined Feb 2011

1391 Posts

My Builds:
Oppenheimer, the Destroyer of Worlds
Bullet Train: 180-230mph At-Will Speed
Aim to Please: +56 to Hit At-Will (Caution: Silly)
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The Flying Ninja: Desert's Voice Genasi Warlock|Executioner
Clutching Wraith - The Inescapable, Insubstantial Grasping Ghost
Athan of the Many Colors: Psychic/Cold/Poison/Radiant/Fire/Necrotic Vulnerability
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The Flickering Knight: Lvl 11 Eladrin Knight Glimmering Blade and Evermeet Warlock
Half-Elf Twin Strike Polearm Shenanigans Fighter with Reach 3

Disregarding for the moment the idea of a flying gnome, I still see potential in a combination Staff of Spectral Hands and Bonded Summoner.

You have a floating shield that provides cover and takes up a square AND sustaining it allows you to teleport 2 as a minor every turn. Combine with an Mithrendain Dagger/Arcane Wisp and you've got teleport 4 as a minor action which you can do as often as you've got minor actions - at higher levels/Ring of Free Time/Revenant skullduggery you could concievably do this six times a turn. Too bad it doesn't count as a teleportation power, or else you could use Mark of Passage or Incisive Daggers to make it teleport 6+.

If you still want to do Gnome, I'm imagining a Gnome Assassin|Warlock MC Wizard that would have Shadow Walk, Assassin's Shrouds, Warlock's Curse and be a teleporting, invisible, death-dealing imp of utter destruction. Magic of the Mists would let you stay faded away even when attacking if it's an arcane attack, Shadow Skulk lets you stay hidden if you miss. You also can roll stealth at the beginning of combat if you have any concealment - how convenient you've got a floating shield/shadow walk to give you near-permanent concealment. Cloak of Distortion gives you defense buffs if you teleport, and you'll be teleporting a lot.

Ok, now I've got to put this together.

57029358 wrote:
... congratulations, Monkeygentleman.
You won the unwinnable.

68773941 wrote:
monkeygentleman, you are the worst thing to happen to the CharOp forums since Mearls took over WotC.

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My Racial Theme Builds:
Sproing! A Leaping, Charging Bullywug Monk
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[/spoiler]

#39 Jul 05, 2011 13:53:26

Joined May 2011

335 Posts

Disregarding for the moment the idea of a flying gnome, I still see potential in a combination Staff of Spectral Hands and Bonded Summoner.

You have a floating shield that provides cover and takes up a square AND sustaining it allows you to teleport 2 as a minor every turn. Combine with an Mithrendain Dagger/Arcane Wisp and you've got teleport 4 as a minor action which you can do as often as you've got minor actions - at higher levels/Ring of Free Time/Revenant skullduggery you could concievably do this six times a turn. Too bad it doesn't count as a teleportation power, or else you could use Mark of Passage or Incisive Daggers to make it teleport 6+.

If you still want to do Gnome, I'm imagining a Gnome Assassin|Warlock MC Wizard that would have Shadow Walk, Assassin's Shrouds, Warlock's Curse and be a teleporting, invisible, death-dealing imp of utter destruction. Magic of the Mists would let you stay faded away even when attacking if it's an arcane attack, Shadow Skulk lets you stay hidden if you miss. You also can roll stealth at the beginning of combat if you have any concealment - how convenient you've got a floating shield/shadow walk to give you near-permanent concealment. Cloak of Distortion gives you defense buffs if you teleport, and you'll be teleporting a lot.

Ok, now I've got to put this together.

Hah, nice going. I must admit i'm impressed by (and slightly jealous of) your ability to find interesting RAW loopholes, well done.

What's the Assassin hybrid for? I must admit i haven't looked into it a lot, so i don't know what it adds to this combo.

Get these goblins off my lawn! - A Lord|Lock / Astral Ascendant Pronelord, wheee

#40 Jul 05, 2011 14:12:12

monkeygentleman

Joined Feb 2011

1391 Posts

I'm still new to hybrids, so I didn't notice that Hybrid Assassin only lets you invoke your shrouds on assassin attacks, and Hybrid Warlock's curse damage only applies on warlock attacks, so they won't combine well. I just saw the feat that gives you Shadow Walk if you're both classes and figured that'd let me use Hybrid Talent to grab something from assassin as well. I'll have to figure that out later.

In the meanwhile, I think Wizard/Warlock with Hybrid Talent: Shadow Walk might be a good bet. Great arcane at-wills plus Shadow Walk and Hidden Sniper means you teleport 3 squares, gain concealment and combat advantage, and if you're still a Gnome Shadow Skulk would let you stay hidden if you miss. If you've still got feat slots and want to multiclass fighter you might even slip a slide+prone into the mix with Battle Awareness, Implement Proficiency (Spear) and Polearm Momentum, but that might be too feat-heavy not to mention quite MAD.

As for RAW loopholes, thank you! I won't be happy until I have close burst 2 slide + prone & twin strike & headsman's chop & deadly draw as an at-will. With teleport 4 as a minor. At level 11.

To be honest, I'm halfway there :D

EDIT:

Let's see here - Level 11 Gnome Warlock|Wizard/Fighter, 18 Int with 14 Wis, 12 Dex and 11 Str, level 11 increase and racial bonuses qualifies for multiclass fighter and PM (with a level 11 retrain to get both at the same time), your warlock attacks wouldn't do well but your wizard ones would be par with racial & level up bonuses. You'd have seven feat slots, so:

Hybrid Talent: Shadow Walk
Hidden Sniper
Implement Proficiency (Spear)
Implement Focus (Spear)
Arcane Familiar: Dimensional Pet
Battle Awareness
Polearm Momentum

Items would be Mithrendain Steel Dagger and a spear of your choice.

At-Will Power would be Thunderwave, Paragon Path would be Bonded Summoner.

It would teleport 4 into the middle of enemies, blast them all with CA, knock them prone, then teleport 4 out again as a minor, with concealment against retributive attacks. Now if only I could make this ally-friendly...

57029358 wrote:
... congratulations, Monkeygentleman.
You won the unwinnable.

68773941 wrote:
monkeygentleman, you are the worst thing to happen to the CharOp forums since Mearls took over WotC.

Show

[/spoiler]

#41 Jul 05, 2011 15:30:55

Joined May 2011

335 Posts