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Joined Oct 2007

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Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies

Do you hate feeling useless whenever your DM introduces a skill challenge? This mini-guide is intended for those players that like to optimize not only for combat encounters but (a bit) for skill challenges as well. In it I will try to focus mainly on game elements that are easy to plug into an existing character, but I'll also mention some of the more powerful race and class related stuff.

Before I'll begin I just want to point out a few things this mini-guide isn't:

It isn't a handbook, so I will not be rating things, only listing them

It isn't intended to discuss the viability of skill challenges, anybody needing advice on improving them can go here where the good folks of Critical Hits collected a wealth of discussions, examples and alternative systems!

General Advice

Races

Deva: The racial power is great for turning a failure into a succes and has a lot of feat support as well

Eladrin: Free skill of your choice, don't forget to look at the skill power section before you choose

Kenku: Granting a +3 makes aiding another a bit more useful

Human: Free skill!

Shardmind: Get a bonus to three skills instead of two

Classes

Bard: You're trained in 5 skills, a bit better at untrained skills and you have access to the Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Dilettante and Bard of All Trades feats

Druid: the utility encounter power All-Encompassing Nature let's nature stand in for Arcana, Dungeoneering and Religion

Runepriest: Has some very helpful utility powers like Mark of Skilled Effort and Compact of Peace

Shaman: Nice class power to be able to succeed on a difficult check, can be shared with others as well.

Devoted Orator: Makes your diplomatic speeches intelligent instead of charismatic (Invoker only)

Gray Guard: Free perception and streetwise training in a PP that is already rather nice (Paladin only)

Half-Elf Polymath: Get training in two additional skills and a daily utility that gives you one more on-the-fly! (Half-Elf only)

Jack-of-All-Trades: A bonus to all skills, an action point based bonus to skill checks, three additional skills and a utility power to reroll a failure: good times! (Rogue only)

Life Singer: Make your allies more useful by granting them a nice bonus to all skills (Bard only)

Feats

Multiclass feats: probably the easiest way of getting a new skill and add to your versatility

Arcane Familiar: for a nice untyped bonus to skills! (Arcane characters only)

Agile Athlete: Because rolling acrobatics and atheltics twice is nice!

Awaken God Fragment (Ioun): for if you get a lot of investigative skill challenges (Invoker only)

Bardic Dilettante: two MC feats for the price of one! (Bard only)

Bardic Knowledge: That's a lot of skills that get a +2! (Bard only)

Bard of All Trades: makes your untrained skills almost as good as your untrained skills (Bard only)

Duelist's Panache: Add your cha tot acrobatics/athletics (Rogue only)

Holy Speech: Buy a cheap gem and be twice as succesful once/challenge (Divine characters only)

Inner Compass: If your DM often uses skill challenges for traveling this might be an interesting feat for you.

Jack of all Trades: makes your untrained skills a bit better.

Power of Skill: does not only turn an at-will into a basic attack, it also makes your trained skills better!

Remembered Knack: another skill from your MC class and a untyped +2 as well (Revenant only)

Skill Focus: especially useful if you can use your skill instead of other skills as well

Skill Power: care less about your feats than your class' utility powers? Use this to get one of the skill powers mentioned above

Sorcerous Vision: Use Arcana instead of Perception and Insight, add Arcane Mutterings for even more substititution fun! (Sorceror only)

Wild Sage: If knowledge of nature often comes up in your skill challenges this grants a decent bonus.

Skill Powers

Arcane Mutterings: Make your arcane book nerd into a socially capable spokesperson for a moment!

Fast Talk: Turn a social failure into a success!

Insightful Comment: If you have a high wisdom this can really help your party get a good round of social checks!

Try the Stick: So you invested in a high intimidate and your DM tells you you're not allowed to use it? Try the stick!

Items

Instead of creating a long list of all the items that grant atheir enhancement bonus to skill checks let me just point out that these are not only useful to make your best skills better but can also add to your versatility by making an untrained skill almost as good or eventually even a bit better than your trained skills

Assassin's Cloak: roll twice on stealth!

Bracers of Mental Might: basing a strength based skill check on your best mental stat makes your puny character able to contribute to physical skill challenges

Cincture of the Dragon Spirit: basing your intimidate on strength instead of charisma makes your brute able to contribute to social skill challenges! You could even wear it only when in town.

Ioun's Revelation: a bonus to all skills and a daily to make your party a bit better at one (Divine Boon)

Lamp of Discerning: a small but slotless and untyped bonus to insight/perception for the whole party!

Talent Shard: Carry a few around for when a difficult and important skill challenge comes up

For the moment I just put in some of the basics, more will follow soon (I hope ;) ).

Thanks to those that made suggestions, if anybody else has suggestions for things that should be added, please post them as I'll be needing all of the community input I can get!

My Archetypal Charging Avenger
My Polearm Gambling & Charging Avenger
Triggering Censure of Pursuit
On Avenger Oaths

#2 Jun 13, 2010 19:17:09

Jay_Ibero_911

Joined Feb 2006

5917 Posts

Rygel, Svirfneblin Warlord|Sentinel 16--Kelith, Revenant Fighter 16 --Samel, Human Thief 13 --Aden Kadril, Elf Paladin 13 --Traya Moonraven, Revenant Hybrid 13 --Chais Domarien, Tiefling Psion 12 --Shiny Scales, Dragonborn Warlord 8 --Krush, Human Warlock 6 --Maxwell Edison, Human Rogue 4

Well there is the Jack-of-all-Trades rogue paragon path for +2 untyped to all skills. Arcane Familiars grant untyped bonuses to various skills as well as other beneficial effects. Holy Speach feat gives an extra success in skill challenges using bluff/diplo/intimidate. Ioun's Revelation boon for item bonus to all skills.

Current LFR Characters

LFR: Embrace the travelling carnival of exotic murder hobos. - Bargle0

#3 Jun 13, 2010 19:18:51

mortalsalazar

Joined Jul 2009

34 Posts

First thing that comes off the top of my head is the Gray Guard PP for Paladins, free skill training in Perception and Streetwise. Very flavorful PP. Requires training in Insight and Intimidate.

#4 Jun 13, 2010 20:03:40

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

Yey, short and sweet !

Maybe add (sooner or later) a list of class related stuff. Eg:
-- Mark of Skilled Effort (Runepriest L2: +2 to a trained / +5 to untrained skill check, ENC)
-- Compact of Peace (Runepriest L6: +5 to Diplomacy for one round, ENC)
-- an Assassin L2 Daily Stance to share the Stealth skill with your party
-- Duelsist's Panache to add Cha to Athletics & Acrobatics as Rogue
There's some great stuff out there.

Some general stuff:
-- Agile Athlet: Paragon feat to reroll all Athletics & Acrobatics.
-- Eg Dwarven Armor (L2+, any heavy - not only a free & free action surge, but also +Enh to Endurance) and Assassin's Cloak (L14+ Neck, roll twice on Stealth) might deserve some special mention as they give much more than just some +Skill-X.

Maybe also add a short advise on how ways to easily gain good Skill Challenge performance without significantly weakening your combat performance.

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#5 Jun 13, 2010 22:34:46

guest1185447559

Joined Mar 2010

106 Posts

Shaman: Nice racial power to be able to succeed on a difficult check, can be shared with others as well.

Think this was meant to be Class not racial.

All looking very nice IF.

#6 Jun 13, 2010 22:47:13

sigfile

Joined Jul 2008

1021 Posts

Invokers - Holy Speech = a two-for-one free success, every social skill challenge.
Devoted Orator PP - Use INT for diplomacy!

#7 Jun 14, 2010 10:38:05

Hasdru

Joined Jun 2008

318 Posts

I second the Jack-of-All-Trades PP, also for the level 16 PP (gain training in 3 skills) and utility power (re-roll a skill check you messed up 1/encounter).

#8 Jun 14, 2010 13:20:46

Joined Oct 2007

1487 Posts

My Archetypal Charging Avenger
My Polearm Gambling & Charging Avenger
Triggering Censure of Pursuit
On Avenger Oaths

Thank you for all the input!

I added most of the suggestions mentioned so far, as well as a little bit of advice on the easiest ways of becoming more useful in skill challenges. I didn't add class powers yet, because I'm not entirely sure yet whether I'll give them their own section or whether I want to make a section called class-related where I can group powers/feats/PP's by class. I now simply put a (... only) behind the class/race specific stuff.

I'll hope to have some time soon where I can go through the compendium systematically to hunt for goodies, in the meantime: please keep suggesting!

By the way: if anybody knows the name of the feat (I think from Dragon magazine) that did something with intimidate in skill challenges, that would make me really happy!

#9 Jun 14, 2010 13:45:35

furious_kender

Joined Oct 2007

2152 Posts

You should point out the with the new errata aid another can penalize a check, so a player needs to figure out if they're more likely to help or hurt the check.

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#10 Jun 14, 2010 14:02:11

Joined Oct 2007

1487 Posts

My Archetypal Charging Avenger
My Polearm Gambling & Charging Avenger
Triggering Censure of Pursuit
On Avenger Oaths

You should point out the with the new errata aid another can penalize a check, so a player needs to figure out if they're more likely to help or hurt the check.

Good point!

#11 Jun 14, 2010 14:15:32

kilpatds

Joined Nov 2003

5250 Posts

Probably WAY more work than you thought you signed up for... but splitting out your semi-standard skill challenge types (athletic, Investigative, social, combat), with notes about how to better use each skill or traps might by handy.

Social:
* Intimidate: Frequently a trap. If you expect this to be your contribution to a skill challenge, you'll want to have some way (like Use the Stick) to turn it into a diplomacy check.
* Diplomacy: Your one shop stop. Spam it until you get bored.
* Insight: Usually an Aid skill for Bluff/Diplomacy. Only worry about if your Diplomancer actually can use help.

Athletic:
* Athletics/Acrobatics: Many SCs allow either approach to work at the same DC, so prefer whichever one has a higher stat.
* Stealth: Comes up less than you'd expect
* Endurance: Very popular as a "mitigate loss" mechanic. Frequently will be the default "everyone has to make it" check. Try and get to the 2/3 success rate against the low DC for your level...

Investigative

knowledge, insight, perception, dungeoneering)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

#12 Jun 14, 2010 15:48:58

FlashbackJon

Joined Jul 2006

2160 Posts

I decided to make a little build based on this guide. It's sitting at level 12 presently, just because that's the level my group is playing at currently, but Shardbard the Shardmind Bard/Rogue/Sorcerer/Jack-of-all-Trades. (I wasted a couple skill trainings in that specific arrangement, but I didn't feel like whoring myself out to Windrise Ports - I might try it both ways.)

Right now, he's +24 Arcana, which can be used as Perception or Insight at-will, or in place of Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate 1/encounter. +20 with trained Bardic Knowledge INT skills, +17 or +15 for most everything else.

As far as suggestions for the guide:

Ioun's Revelation is a flat +2 item bonus to all skills, if your DM lets you buy Divine Boons.

Duelist's Panache (Rogue) gives you +CHA as a feat bonus to Acrobatics and Athletics.

Inner Compass allows a reroll for Nature or Dungeoneering for navigating.

Wild Sage gives +5 feat bonus to Nature knowledge and monster knowledge for natural creatures.

Mnemonic Staff gives +2 item bonus to creature knowledge checks.

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#13 Jun 14, 2010 22:28:12

kilpatds

Joined Nov 2003

5250 Posts

One thing that's important to remember in the context of skill challenges: the DCs are relatively well known.

If you're using stealth to hide, the bigger the bonus the better. My 14th level Avenger with a +23 steath may want more. (16th level monster can reasonably have a +18 perception, making my effective DC to stealth 28. If I'm moving any, that's effectively 33, and I need an 10. I need a 15 if I need to move a lot. Could use more work)

But in a skill challenge, his "take 1" is an auto success on a hard check. He needs a 2 to succeed on a level 18 skill challenge hard check. Ok, that's (more than) enough stealth for any relevant skill challenge check.

This is usually only relevant for Bards and Diplomacy though.

#14 Jun 14, 2010 23:37:53

Mengu74

Joined Nov 2007

3328 Posts

I don't think you can max out a skill to where more bonuses are pointless. Even in skill challenges, sometimes beating the DC by 10 can give you additional success or other rewards. Of course, there is always an opportunity cost for increasing a skill, that needs to be considered.

Things like group skill checks also mean that even a low skill could sometimes use a bit of attention. It's not unusual for me to ask my group for a group stealth check. Only one person is really good at it, the rest not so much. But speaking with spirits and maybe adding a d6, the deva shaman can usually bring his score to a success, and they only need one more lucky roll at that point to make the group check.

Ultimately in a party, you want some skill specialization, some overlap, some assist potential (bard is the ultimate assistant when not taking the lead), and some versatility (like shamans or devas, or miscellaneous utility powers that let you fake one skill with another, such as Fast Talk).

#15 Jun 15, 2010 8:09:58

kilpatds

Joined Nov 2003

5250 Posts

I don't think you can max out a skill to where more bonuses are pointless. Even in skill challenges, sometimes beating the DC by 10 can give you additional success or other rewards

I've never seen that in my experience, outside specific DMs. I assume that LFR is generally run pretty strict-by-the-book, and rarely see it there. And outside of LFR, I have a faint hope that skill challenges are not used very much, outside of the group check concept for stealth.

#16 Jun 15, 2010 8:17:02

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

Oh, we use them quite a bit...
... but of course not as written in the rules. The Stalker system (slightly modified) with a little narrative freedom and some creativity from the DM how the results actually affect the story can go a long way. The idea of skill challenges as narrative framework was quite good - just the implementation was, well... botched.

#17 Jun 15, 2010 9:56:21

Joined Oct 2007

1487 Posts

My Archetypal Charging Avenger
My Polearm Gambling & Charging Avenger
Triggering Censure of Pursuit
On Avenger Oaths

Probably WAY more work than you thought you signed up for... but splitting out your semi-standard skill challenge types (athletic, Investigative, social, combat), with notes about how to better use each skill or traps might by handy.

Social:
* Intimidate: Frequently a trap. If you expect this to be your contribution to a skill challenge, you'll want to have some way (like Use the Stick) to turn it into a diplomacy check.
* Diplomacy: Your one shop stop. Spam it until you get bored.
* Insight: Usually an Aid skill for Bluff/Diplomacy. Only worry about if your Diplomancer actually can use help.

Athletic:
* Athletics/Acrobatics: Many SCs allow either approach to work at the same DC, so prefer whichever one has a higher stat.
* Stealth: Comes up less than you'd expect
* Endurance: Very popular as a "mitigate loss" mechanic. Frequently will be the default "everyone has to make it" check. Try and get to the 2/3 success rate against the low DC for your level...

Investigativeknowledge, insight, perception, dungeoneering)

I think I'll steal this list from you and add some ideas for creative use of other skills for each of these categories for those players that have DMs that are willing to go a bit less by the book and allow for creativity. In my experience coming up with why you are going to roll athletics in an investigative skill challenge or endurance in a social one is one of the most fun aspects of skill challenges, and can give way to great joined storytelling.

I'll also try to make a comment under the general advice heading regarding the DC advice you and Mengu74 were discussing.

I decided to make a little build based on this guide. It's sitting at level 12 presently, just because that's the level my group is playing at currently, but Shardbard the Shardmind Bard/Rogue/Sorcerer/Jack-of-all-Trades. (I wasted a couple skill trainings in that specific arrangement, but I didn't feel like whoring myself out to Windrise Ports - I might try it both ways.)

Right now, he's +24 Arcana, which can be used as Perception or Insight at-will, or in place of Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate 1/encounter. +20 with trained Bardic Knowledge INT skills, +17 or +15 for most everything else.

That's cool! Maybe I'll do something similar once I'm more or less satisfied with the guide. I'll also add the suggestions you made!

#18 Jun 15, 2010 11:29:33

Jay_Ibero_911

Joined Feb 2006

5917 Posts

Awaken God Fragment for invokers of Ioun...roll twice and take best result on all knowledge checks...

Current LFR Characters

LFR: Embrace the travelling carnival of exotic murder hobos. - Bargle0

#19 Jun 15, 2010 17:17:21

Herid_Fel

Joined Apr 2008

2513 Posts

The Half-Elf Polymath gives a half-elf an extra two trained skills. There's also All-Encompassing Nature (druid utility 2), which allows you to replace an Arcana, Dungeoneering, or Religion check with a Nature check.

#20 Jun 15, 2010 22:12:49

Jay_Ibero_911

Joined Feb 2006

5917 Posts

Lifesinger bard paragon path gives +2 to ALL your allies skills and ability checks...helpful I think..

Current LFR Characters

LFR: Embrace the travelling carnival of exotic murder hobos. - Bargle0

#21 Jun 16, 2010 2:57:37

Hasdru

Joined Jun 2008

318 Posts

Knowledge skills (Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion): get to know your opponents to better handle them, and learn lots of rituals!

#22 Jun 16, 2010 3:48:29

Joined Oct 2007

1487 Posts

My Archetypal Charging Avenger
My Polearm Gambling & Charging Avenger
Triggering Censure of Pursuit
On Avenger Oaths

Awaken God Fragment for invokers of Ioun...roll twice and take best result on all knowledge checks...

The Half-Elf Polymath gives a half-elf an extra two trained skills. There's also All-Encompassing Nature (druid utility 2), which allows you to replace an Arcana, Dungeoneering, or Religion check with a Nature check.

Lifesinger bard paragon path gives +2 to ALL your allies skills and ability checks...helpful I think..

Added!

Knowledge skills (Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion): get to know your opponents to better handle them, and learn lots of rituals!

Are there any rituals in particular you find useful for skill challenges?

#23 Jun 16, 2010 4:25:24

keldar

Joined Jul 2002

78 Posts

Bards have Aria of Revelation to provide a +5 to +20 to a single knowledge check for allies. Very handy if you expect that type of skill challenge to crop up. Song of Sustenence (again for Bard) provides a +5 to Endurance for two days at a time, a huge boost for a level 8 ritual. Bards should never leave home without it!
Tune of Merriment and Glib Limerick can grant double rolls for Diplomacy and Bluff checks repsectively, though GL only helps the Bard.

Outside of Bard rituals, Discern Lies looks good, adding a religion check to an insight check for a decent cost. Traveler's Camoflauge can help with stealth challenges.

I lack Insider status, so I have no clue if any rituals have been published there that would be relevant.

#24 Jun 16, 2010 6:20:30

Hasdru

Joined Jun 2008

318 Posts

A few examplesof rituals that have applications in skill challenges:
- Peerless Exploration (Stealth): when travelling over an extended period, useful to secure an encampmentn and forage
- Tune of Merriment (Arcana): roll twice when making a Diplomacy check
- Seek Rumor (Arcana): make an Arcana roll instead of a Steetwise check
- Worrd on the Street (Steetwise): make a Steetwise Check instead of another knowledge check
- Discern Lies (Religion): uneful in any social encounter
etc.

#25 Jun 16, 2010 19:59:58

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

Rituals useful in Skill Challenges ? Plenty - you just need a bit of creativity every now and then !

Highlights:
-- pretty many of the Bard only rituals
-- Comprehend Language (1)
-- Silence / Wizard's Curtain (1)
-- Traveller's Carmouflage (1)
-- Endure Elements (2)
-- Last Sight vision (2)
-- Seek Rumor (2)
-- Water Walk (2)
-- Dark Light (4)
-- Feat of Strength (4)
-- Hand of Fate (4)
-- Knock (4)
-- Object Reading (5)
-- Speak with Nature (5)
-- Vistani Passkey (5)
-- Ancestral Whispers (6)
-- Call Wilderness Guide (6)
-- Discern Lies (6)
-- Mordenkainen's Ascent (6)
-- Speak with Dead (6)
-- Wizard's Escape (6)
-- Inquisitive Eyes (8)
-- Shadow Bridge (8)
-- Tenser's Lift (8)
-- Water Breathin (8)
-- Consult Mystic Sages (10)
-- Eagle's Flight (10)
-- Water's Gift (10)

Wow, that's many... and I just went through the list for Heroics (aka cheap) and wrote down those that would have had an immediate and undisputable usage in a Skill Challenge I remember - up to completely winning them outright !

#26 Feb 15, 2011 8:15:10

crayne

Joined Dec 2009

1170 Posts

While this thread is a bit older, i also found something interesting, while looking at this guide. The PP "Traveler's Harlequin" allows you to ignore the "one MC feat" rule starting at level 11 and gives you one MC feat for free. With this i created a character just for fun, who is trained in all skills (using only MC feats).

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#27 Feb 15, 2011 15:32:46

Zathris

Joined Nov 2009

6366 Posts

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How could you forget Phantom Steed, langeweile! DC 20 for Speed 12 and ignoring difficult terrain gave free successes in some chase SCs, DC 30 for water walk, and DC 40 Flight.

SC's come in 3 types (in LFR mods anyway) ones that forget about ritual use and the DM has to wing it, ones that give a bonus (usually free success) for some ritual use, and ones that don't care if you have the ritual or not - it doesn't work.

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#28 Apr 09, 2011 16:19:22

feralspirit

Joined Nov 2009

347 Posts

Alright, this is actually not the guide I was hoping for... Do we have a guide for Skill Powers somewhere?

#29 Apr 11, 2011 16:34:25

awaken_D_M_golem

Joined Dec 2006

3076 Posts