The Distant Cousin - Avenger|Seeker/Son of Mercy

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Legend-ofthe-Seeker4.jpg


Because every party needs a crazy hobo with a radioactive gem.




(Sorry, couldn't help the dig at Legend of the Seeker when making a Seeker build. Bad TV show based on an even worse - sadly, it's possible - book series.)

Idea: Continuing my thoughts on "making Seekers not suck", this is another take on building an effective Seeker. The core concept is to exploit the Seeker's ranged basic attacks with the Distant Vengeance feat of an Avenger, which allows us to roll two attacks on pretty much every attack we make, except some Dailies. We'll be playing a controller/striker/defender that mixes good offense with good defense and good control. This build gets its combo off at first level, and is quite playable all the way through 30.

Build: Avenger|Seeker/Paladin/Son of Mercy. (It's debatable if a multiclass paladin feat qualifies you for the Paragon Path. Customer Service says it works, the Character Builder says it doesn't.) Either go Str/Wis or Dex/Wis. Alternatively, if you don't like Son of Mercy, Crimson Hunter is a good option for this build, for a guy who really won't miss very much (it's worth an extra +1 to hit and improved crit range), and Favored Soul is ridiculously overpowered as well (Always-on Flight 10 + Greatbow = win, at 16th level). We'll use Son of Mercy for this build, though.

Race: For a Str/Wis build, go shifter - the damage boost and regen is kind of nice, and we can mix melee attacks in with our ranged. For Dex/Wis buids, I like Githzerai and Changeling. Githzerai allow you to get a ridiculously high init, which is great for a controller. Changelings are both really fun to RP, and it unlocks Taunting Visage, which is permanent CA against your Oath target. Drow also have the very nice Vicious Darkfire feat, which grants CA and +Dex to damage for two rounds. Elf is a great choice if you want to kite, since you can move 10 squares every round without taking a -5 penalty to hit. They're also very accurate.

For this sample build, we'll go Dex/Wis as a Githzerai.

Salient Combos:

#1) Always Winning Initiative. This is a very nice benefit for a controller. It's much better locking down a monster in place before he gets a chance to go. Githzerai get +2 to init. We start with a 16 or 18 Dex. We take Improved Init (or Quick Draw, if you want to carry melee weapons too), Danger Sense, and Superior  Init. We will be at around +18 to init rolls above base with two rolls... worth enough taking the Lucky Start feat (and/or Seize the Moment and/or Vistani Foresight). Why should we care about getting a free reroll on the first round of combat? Because we can only Oath people within 10 squares, and with Lucky Start also works with dailies. So when that Dracolich pops out of nowhere, 20 squares away, we can nearly guarantee a hit with our Captivating Missile or Baleful Shot or whatever.

While this doesn't translate into sheer DPR numbers that people can ooh and aah over, it's very useful in actual play to take out a monster before he can do something very bad to the party, especially on the first round of combat, when the PCs are typically clumped up together.

#2) Very High Accuracy. Distant Vengeance + lots of Ranged Basic Attacks from Seeker (+Expertise) + Eagle Eye Goggles + some RBAs that target NADs. This lets us roll two attack rolls against our primary target all day long. At first I thought this combo wouldn't work with hybrid Avengers, but then I went back and looked at normal Avengers - Distant Vengeance adds a new category your Oath applies to, so the trick will work. If we really wanted to, we could use a Superior Crossbow, but then we'd lose the ability to use Inevitable Shot (unless we pick up a Swiftshot Weapon). We'll have a hit rate around 80% or so, with a 9% crit rate. This puts us a step up on wizards, since you need to hit in order to slow a target.

#3) Stacking Scads of Damage at paragon. Biting Swarm + Primal Eye + Painful Oath + Lawbreaker's Doom + optional hybrid Pursuit Avenger feat + Radiant Greatbow = best case 1[W]+Wis+Dex+Wis+Wis+Dex+Slow+ -2 to hit in a burst 1 on the first attack we make every round. At 16th level or so, this will work out to about 1d12+44 radiant and necrotic damage per hit. If we ignore Pursuit Avenger, it'd be around 1d12+38 or so.

DPR = .8 * 50.5 + .09 * 71 = 46.8 DPR. Pretty solid for using nothing but at-wills on a controller at 16th.

It'll be a couple points higher if we use a Ring of the Radiant Storm.

#4) Good AC. Unarmored Agility + Hybrid Talent Armor of Faith + Improved Armor of Faith + Dex = Better than plate + shield AC. Githzerai also get the ability to interrupt to add +2 to defenses for a round, and we can take Acrobatic Dodge for another interrupt to negate an attack.

One amusing trick, if you are just sitting back at range, trading shots with enemy archers, is to use a Rope of Slave Fighting and drop prone (optionally combined with the Acrobatics skill power to stand up quickly). You get +2 to defenses against their ranged attacks, but suffer no penalty for being prone.

We can use Phantom Chaussures to gain perma concealment.

#5) Damn Good Control. Oath Strike / Divine Challenge + Lawbreaker's Doom + Biting Swarm + (optional) Mindiron Weapon + Psychic Lock + (Optional) Mark of Warding = Being able to slow and impose a -8 penalty for a monster to hit, every round, as well as slowing the target and giving out a -2 to hit penalty to all his friends nearby. Since we're always going to be 10 squares away, and will very nearly always hit, melee monsters will basically be hosed, being permanently slowed and with a really really terrible penalty to hit any of our friends that engage him in melee. Even ranged monsters will suffer a -4 penalty to hit us when they try to respect the mark (-5 to -10 to hit us if we use a Cloak of Distortion).

You'll have to pick between going for more damage (radiant weapon + say, weapon focus) and more control (mindiron weapon + psychic lock). I personally prefer the improved control, but people here are so focused on DPR numbers, I provided that option as well, above.

This combo comes into play at 11th. Before that, use Grappling Spirits instead of Biting Swarm as your primary at-will.

Exposing Oath is a possibility for removing a target's resistance to our attacks.

#6) Hey, even if we miss, we get a free attack each encounter with Inevitable Shot (or two if we AP). This is kind of like a cost-free Battle Awareness or Rampage or whatever. We can get a second one if we really want. These shots won't be as good as our primary basic attacks since they probably won't be against an Oath target unless we've used a power to Oath and/or mark a second guy.

#7) Even though multiclass Shamans got nerfed, we can still use the trick I mentioned in Little Mac and Coach. If you have friends who take the Spirit Talker feat, each one of those grants a portable wall and the ability to give us a free RBA every combat. Going Disciple of the World Spirit and hovering a spirit companion over a foe allows you lock down their movement when combined with Grappling Spirits. But since Sudden Call got nerfed, you can no longer resummon your hawk every round, so they can always escape it by just killing your spirit. However, getting an encounter heal from Mending Spirit turns you into a half-healer, so you can collect every role as a controller/striker/defender/leader. =)

#8) We're stealthy. With Persistent Tail, we can kite our target. We position an ally between us and our mark. Then, if we're unlucky enough to actually miss, and the target tries to move/charge us, we can take an immediate action after their move to move even further away. If we end even with normal cover and concealment, we can Stealth to hide against them to pick up CA. (Hell, we can do this even if we did hit them and they're slowed but still try to move.) Since it's an at-will we can use this to easily gain CA from range against our target. Also, having a high Stealth score is always nice. Even if our target decides to sit still, we can use Persistent Tail on other monsters, to Stealth evade their attacks against us.

Conclusion: You'll need to decide for yourself which aspects you want to focus on. Should I take Weapon Focus (striker) or Psychic Lock (controller)? Do I take Mending Spirit (Leader) or Danger Sense (higher initiative)? Greatbow or Superior Crossbow or save the feat and just use a longbow? I'll post a sample build below that focuses mainly on being an effective controller more than anything else, optimizing for a mix of high AC, good init, and decent damage.

If you look at the item list, I provided a variety of options that would be beneficial to this character. Pick and choose which ones you like.

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ave Mario, level 18
Githzerai, Avenger|Seeker, Favored Soul
Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Will
Seeker's Bond (Hybrid): Bloodbond (Hybrid)
Hybrid Seeker: Hybrid Seeker Will
Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Bow)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 14, Dex 22, Int 9, Wis 24, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 10.


AC: 36 Fort: 25 Reflex: 29 Will: 34
HP: 122 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +22, Perception +21, Stealth +20, Insight +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +16, Endurance +11, Heal +16, History +8, Intimidate +9, Nature +16, Religion +8, Streetwise +9, Thievery +15, Athletics +11

FEATS
Level 1: Distant Vengeance
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Soldier of Virtue
Level 8: Versatile Expertise
Level 10: Oath Strike
Level 11: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 12: Primal Eye
Level 14: Painful Oath
Level 16: Psychic Lock
Level 18: Unarmored Agility

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Hybrid at-will 1: Biting Swarm
Hybrid encounter 1: Seeking Brand
Hybrid daily 1: Celestial Fist
Hybrid utility 2: Avenger's Resolve
Hybrid encounter 3: Winter Spirit
Hybrid daily 5: Ensnaring Shot
Hybrid utility 6: Blurring Stride
Hybrid encounter 7: Wasp Sting Shot
Hybrid daily 9: Nature's Vengeance
Hybrid utility 10: Sheltering Underbrush
Hybrid encounter 13: Lifedrinking Covenant (replaces Seeking Brand)
Hybrid daily 15: Fey Sinkhole (replaces Nature's Vengeance)
Hybrid utility 16: Persistent Tail
Hybrid encounter 17: Astral Fury (replaces Wasp Sting Shot)

ITEMS
Irrefutable Mindweave Armor +4, Enduring Spirit Vestments Mindweave Armor +4, Shadowflow Mindweave Armor +4, Sanguine Vestments Mindweave Armor +4, Wrathful symbol of Vigor +4, Targeting Longbow +4, Serpent's Kiss Bow Longbow +4, Radiant Longbow +4, Mindiron Longbow +4, Eagle Eye Goggles (paragon tier), Cloak of Distortion +4, Bracers of Archery (paragon tier), Gloves of Accuracy (paragon tier), Hrothmar's Gauntlets (paragon tier), Ring of True Seeing (paragon tier), Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Shadowfell Signet (paragon tier), Amethyst Band of Invisible Eyes (paragon tier), Premonition Ring (paragon tier), Greatwing Tattoo (paragon tier), Belt of Breaching (paragon tier), Rope of Slave Fighting (paragon tier), Sash of Vitality Ceaseless (paragon tier), Acrobat's Harness (paragon tier), Rebounding Superior crossbow +1, Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


For those of you worried about rules issues, here's a safe build that can pull off the combo for three rounds every combat, no RAW or RAI issues to worry about:
Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Safe Cousin, level 16
Githzerai, Seeker, Favored Soul
Seeker's Bond: Bloodbond
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 12, Dex 20, Int 9, Wis 24, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10.


AC: 30 Fort: 23 Reflex: 28 Will: 30
HP: 111 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +20, Stealth +18, Perception +20, Acrobatics +20, Religion +12, Endurance +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, History +7, Insight +15, Intimidate +8, Streetwise +8, Thievery +13, Athletics +10

FEATS
Level 1: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 2: Distant Vengeance
Level 4: Hero of Faith
Level 6: Vistani Heritage
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Improved Initiative
Level 11: Primal Eye
Level 12: Painful Oath
Level 14: Oath Strike
Level 16: Psychic Lock

POWERS
Seeker at-will 1: Grappling Spirits
Seeker at-will 1: Biting Swarm
Seeker encounter 1: Mischief Spirits
Seeker daily 1: Swarming Bats
Seeker utility 2: Far Sight
Seeker encounter 3: Winter Spirit
Seeker daily 5: Ensnaring Shot
Seeker utility 6: Tumbling Dodge
Seeker encounter 7: Wasp Sting Shot
Seeker daily 9: Binding Shot
Seeker utility 10: Persistent Tail
Seeker encounter 13: Raven Wing Shot (replaces Mischief Spirits)
Seeker daily 15: Fey Sinkhole (replaces Binding Shot)
Seeker utility 16: Ephemeral Wings

ITEMS
Magic Feyleather Armor +4, Magic Longbow +4, Amulet of Protection +4
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

legend-of-the-seeker4.jpg


Truly, the Legend of the Seeker is an epic story of poor personal hygeine.

As usual a creative and still extremly effective build - a very nice read !

Thanks, man. I'll be actually playing this character in LFR, so we'll see how it all works out in practice.

It's entirely possible we won't even need to worry about the character's AC, and be able to focus on other aspects instead.
ShakaUVM--

First off, I'm a big fan of your builds and presentation style. Mr. Stupid is one of my all time favorite posts, if not my favorite, period.


Unfortunately, I believe Son of Mercy requires Defender base class. This came up yesterday in IRC, and I believe kilpatds pointed out that this is stated in the FAQ.
ShakaUVM--

First off, I'm a big fan of your builds and presentation style. Mr. Stupid is one of my all time favorite posts, if not my favorite, period.


Unfortunately, I believe Son of Mercy requires Defender base class. This came up yesterday in IRC, and I believe kilpatds pointed out that this is stated in the FAQ.

Got a quote from it? When I asked Customer Service about the old Warforged Juggernaut (which used to require Defender Role), they said being a MC fighter would qualify you for it.

As I said in the post, if you don't like Son of Mercy, there's two very good other PPs available for the build. Favored Soul, especially, is wicked. Being 10 squares vertically up from the battlefield 24/7 is a hugely powerful option. Crimson Arrow gives you yet another +1 to hit and 19-20 crits, which combine nicely with Oath of Enmity.
I messed around with this concept awhile ago when a thread came up asking about distant vegeance, and it's interesting to see your take on it.  I ended up focusing more on the striker aspects with crimson hunter, but favored soul is another great way to mess with your Dm as you can control from the skies (especially since the fly rules were changed).

Got a quote from it? When I asked Customer Service about the old Warforged Juggernaut (which used to require Defender Role), they said being a MC fighter would qualify you for it.



Unfortunately, it is in the FAQ for PHB1:


33. Does taking a fighter multiclass feat qualify you for feats and paragon paths that require the defender role?



No, you do not gain the role of the class that you multiclass into.







Personally, I rather like this build better with Favored Soul, anyway, so I don't mind. Gives it a bit of Kid Icarus feel.
Thanks, man. I'll be actually playing this character in LFR, so we'll see how it all works out in practice.



I think playing this character in LFR sounds very sketchy. There's two big problems:
You're relying on something that will eventually get updated - they can't possibly have intended that a Seeker might get full-blown Avenger status.

There's a set theory problem. You get the benefit of your oath of enmity, not that you get to roll twice. Your oath of enmity benefit when not using an Avenger power is nothing. So when you use a Seeker power, you gain that benefit. i.e. nothing.
Specific beats general?  By your logic the feat is useless since you aren't using a melee attack.  Either it works both ways or neither.  
Specific beats general?  By your logic the feat is useless since you aren't using a melee attack.  Either it works both ways or neither.  



No, oath of enmity vs. hybrid has different wording.

Oath of Enmity describes when you make a melee attack how it works. Distant Vengeance is now an exception that allows it to work with an RBA as well. That is useful.

Hybrid Oath works as Oath except then it further limits it to specifically "except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power."

i.e. Hybrid works like this:
Oath of enmity. Yes.
Distant Vengeance and RBA. Yes.
Is this a melee avenger or avenger paragon path power? No.

So no effect. 
i.e. Hybrid works like this:
Oath of enmity. Yes.
Distant Vengeance and RBA. Yes.
Is this a melee avenger or avenger paragon path power? No.

So no effect. 

Nah, it works like this:
Normal Avenger: All melee attacks
MC Avenger: All melee attacks
Hybrid Avenger: All Avenger melee attacks
None of them allow you to use OoE with RBAs.

Distant Vengeance adds that ability.
Specific beats general?  By your logic the feat is useless since you aren't using a melee attack.  Either it works both ways or neither.  



No, oath of enmity vs. hybrid has different wording.

Oath of Enmity describes when you make a melee attack how it works. Distant Vengeance is now an exception that allows it to work with an RBA as well. That is useful.

Hybrid Oath works as Oath except then it further limits it to specifically "except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power."

i.e. Hybrid works like this:
Oath of enmity. Yes.
Distant Vengeance and RBA. Yes.
Is this a melee avenger or avenger paragon path power? No.

So no effect. 



I agree, and this is how I've seen it most frequently understood on the boards.  There is also a CS response floating around somewhere that backs up this understanding. 

I wouldn't take this into LFR without a solid back up weapon, for at best, you will only sometimes get to use your character as envisioned. 

I agree, and this is how I've seen it most frequently understood on the boards.  There is also a CS response floating around somewhere that backs up this understanding. 

I wouldn't take this into LFR without a solid back up weapon, for at best, you will only sometimes get to use your character as envisioned.

To the contrary. CS ruled it worked:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

So it's safe to use in LFR... just take the printout with you.

"except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power."

But thats the issue right there.  

"you gain the benefit of your oath of enmity on all ranged basic attacks against your oath of enmity target."

You are saying this removes the ONLY when you make a melee attack.  We are saying that is removing the ONLY when you make a melee attack using an avenger/avenger paragon path power.  

In other words the feat negates the fact that it is limited to RBAs and to only avenger/avenger paragon path powers, or it negates neither.

General you can use your oath with melee attack that are avenger powers

Specific you can use your oath on ALL ranged basic attacks.

Thats the argument.   
I agree, and this is how I've seen it most frequently understood on the boards.  There is also a CS response floating around somewhere that backs up this understanding. 

I wouldn't take this into LFR without a solid back up weapon, for at best, you will only sometimes get to use your character as envisioned.

To the contrary. CS ruled it worked:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

So it's safe to use in LFR... just take the printout with you.




I know this is how LFR is supposed to work.  However, I've found LFR DMs tend to respect CS as much as these boards do.  So I'd take a backup weapon or at least take the the avenger RBA at-will.
"except that you can apply the effect only when you make a melee attack using an avenger power or an avenger paragon path power."

Specific overrides general.

Neither Avengers nor Hybrid Avengers nor MC Avengers can use OoE with RBAs.

Distant Vengeance overrides those restrictions.
In other words the feat negates the fact that it is limited to RBAs and to only avenger/avenger paragon path powers, or it negates neither.

General you can use your oath with melee attack that are avenger powers

Specific you can use your oath on ALL ranged basic attacks.

Thats the argument.   



Sorry, that's not set theory nor is that what is happening.

Specific, you can use the benefit of your oath on all RBAs. The benefit for a regular avenger is 2 attack rolls - which is then defined as working on melee attacks. The benefit for a hybrid avenger on melee avenger or avenger paragon path powers is 2 attack rolls. The benefit for all other powers is nothing. That's how an only as a limit works.

So you gain the benefit of your Oath of Enmity on an RBA. Which is nothing.

As for LFR, I think most LFR DMs would laugh out loud at the CS printout. First off, they're famous for giving contradictory reports, especially when questions aren't asked correctly. And that question isn't asked correctly. I dare say the vast majority of LFR tables would ask you why you're using two rolls, would look at the hybrid wording, and you'd get nerfed.
So you gain the benefit of your Oath of Enmity on an RBA. Which is nothing.

I think there's something wrong with your conclusion.

No offense.

The simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter if OoE only works on melee attacks or Avenger melee attacks. Distant Vengeance lets it work on RBAs, so it works.
I completely agree with Shaka on this one. The feat modifies the OoE class feature, as well as the hybrid class feature, to include RBAs whereas neither hybrid nor standard OoE would be able to on their own. 
I'm also with Shaka on this.  (Nice build, btw!)

Does the hybrid avenger satisfy feat, PP prerequisites requiring the Oath of Enmity power? 
Yes

Does a multiclass avenger that gains the Oath of Enmity power (through Disciple of Divine Wrath or Hero of Faith) satisfy feat, PP prerequisites requiring the OoE power?
Yes (see PH p208 example of Warlock taking Sneak of Shadows to qualify for Backstabber feat).

Can a hybrid avenger or multiclass avenger take Distant Vengeance feat and gain the stated benefit?
Yes (see PH p11 Specific Beats General)

It doesn't matter that MC avenger only gains this benefit until EoNT or next hit; or that the hybrid avenger is normally restricted to melee avenger or avenger PP powers.  Distant Vengeance feat adds "all ranged basic attacks" as an option for avengers, hybrid avengers, and multiclass avengers to gain their OoE benefit against their OoE target.
I have to say that this works, though I suspect that it will see the nerf bat in July, as it is a very powerful consequence of the hybrid rules mixing with material that didn't take the hybrid rules into account.
Yes, I am a defender apologist. A Rock and a Hard Place: A Warden Handbook
Truth be told, the seeker powers that count as ranged basic attacks (there are 11 of them) are among the weakest in the class.  Similar to how level 1 At-Will attack powers that count as basic attacks are seldom considered 'strong' on their own.  Only one of them (lvl 17 Convocation of Arrows) can target more than one creature (just two in fact), and the rider effects can often be duplicated by proper magic item selection.  Seeker RBA powers also don't include any multitarget burst attacks (which the Seeker class has many) so a Seeker|Avenger is giving up a lot of versatility by focusing on RBA's.

I don't consider this character to be overpowered compared to many builds that appear in these forums.  The Seeker class has generally been considered 'underpowered' by much of the CharOp community, but ShakaUVM highlighted some synergies that makes it refreshingly effective, flavorful and fun to play.
Can a hybrid avenger or multiclass avenger take Distant Vengeance feat and gain the stated benefit?
Yes (see PH p11 Specific Beats General)




Let's look at it another way. Say there was a class called Underwater Avenger, which was exactly like Avenger except they had a special Oath of Enmity that read like this:
The power (Oath of Enmity) functions as normal, except that you can apply the effect only when you're underwater.

That's the exact same wording except I put in a much more obvious specific 'only limit'. If you talk to someone using the English language and insist that you should be able to use only RBAs underwater based on this, they'll laugh at you.

And that's because the Hybrid Oath of Enmity is not a general rule, it is a specific rule overriding a general rule. And you need to satisfy all specific rules.
I really like the ideas in this build.  One of my problems with seeker is just how bad it gets at epic (my seeker hybrid also looks awesome at 16).  But this can only get better with more material.

Have you considered Minotaur for Str/Wis builds?  I'm leaning towards this over shifter for my seeker|warlord, as at epic, you get the Mythic Senses feat.  With +2 Perception from race (better skill bonuses from minotaur than shifter for seeker imo), +1 from Missing Master background, +9 Wis, you're looking at a +32 Perception check (can also consider Natural Cunning for 3 more).  Even a Dex character with +9 and superior initiative is only 15+9+8 = 32.  

I also think the automatic pinpointing of invisible things within 2 squares is kind of interesting when mixed with polearm gamble + hungry weapon.  This doesn't come into play until epic, though, so it's kind of a question if minotaur provides any real benefits before then (+1 surge and goring charge aren't the worst).

Also, in your build, how are you marking the target for Lawbreaker's Doom?  (requirement = enemy you just marked).  All I see is the level 12 close burst 1 marking utility in your build.  I looked at Son of Mercy, but is it still worth it with only a 1/encounter marking ability?  Am I missing something?
IIRC, we have a FAQ ruling that you don't qualify for a role just by MCing. Otherwise, Son of Mercy would be the new go-to PP for everyone that was a Pit Fighter. What's stopping that is the fact that it's really hard to qualify for.
What about hybrid fighter?  That should work, no?
What about hybrid fighter?  That should work, no?


Seems to me like hybrid Avenger|Seeker is necessary for this build.
Yeah, my question was a tangent.  Just wondering if hybrids count as fulfilling roles or not.
Also, in your build, how are you marking the target for Lawbreaker's Doom?  (requirement = enemy you just marked).  All I see is the level 12 close burst 1 marking utility in your build.  I looked at Son of Mercy, but is it still worth it with only a 1/encounter marking ability?  Am I missing something?

He marks people when he oaths them. =)

www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/fe...
Ah, got it, Oath Strike.  Too bad we can't qualify for Son of Mercy then =/  The 19-20 crit pps seem solid, though.
Ah, got it, Oath Strike.  Too bad we can't qualify for Son of Mercy then =/  The 19-20 crit pps seem solid, though.


I think Oath Strike is still very much worth taking, as it's a free -2 to hit debuff to enemies that can't get to us. If we're a favored soul and hover 10 squares up, it's one of those sucks-to-be-you moments.

19-20 crits are very nice though, especially when you get two chances on it each round.
Let's look at it another way. Say there was a class called Underwater Avenger, which was exactly like Avenger except they had a special Oath of Enmity that read like this:
The power (Oath of Enmity) functions as normal, except that you can apply the effect only when you're underwater.

That's the exact same wording except I put in a much more obvious specific 'only limit'. If you talk to someone using the English language and insist that you should be able to use only RBAs underwater based on this, they'll laugh at you.

And that's because the Hybrid Oath of Enmity is not a general rule, it is a specific rule overriding a general rule. And you need to satisfy all specific rules.

Let's say that it only applied to melee attacks while underwater. It doesn't put any restriction on ranged attacks underwater.

I think Oath Strike is still very much worth taking, as it's a free -2 to hit debuff to enemies that can't get to us.

The only problem I have with Oath Strike is it's duration.  One monster turn, that's it.  And no way to reapply it on a given monster outside of shifting oath around a lot.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

That's the exact same wording except I put in a much more obvious specific 'only limit'. If you talk to someone using the English language and insist that you should be able to use only RBAs underwater based on this, they'll laugh at you.

And that's because the Hybrid Oath of Enmity is not a general rule, it is a specific rule overriding a general rule. And you need to satisfy all specific rules.

Let's say that it only applied to melee attacks while underwater. It doesn't put any restriction on ranged attacks underwater.



Actually, it depends on where the rule is - if it is part of the general rule(Oath of Enmity) it isn't a problem. If it is part of the specific rule(Underwater Variant specific rules), then yes, it is a problem. You then end up with two specific rules in conflict. As an example, if a power allows me to shift and then attack and I'm immobilized, that means the shift is worthless in that instance.

Having something end up worthless in the face of two contradictory specific rules happens all the time. I'm not especially arguing the melee part because I think they were just reiterating that the Avenger hybrid power only works with melee powers - I'd personally allow an Avenger hybrid to use the Oath with Avenging Shackles based on RAI as an example, but I don't think that's legal based on RAW.

And that's because the Hybrid Oath of Enmity is not a general rule, it is a specific rule overriding a general rule. And you need to satisfy all specific rules.

I consider the non-retrainable choices that a character makes at character creation to be 'general rules'; e.g. all hybrid avengers get the exact same 'Oath of Enmity (Hybrid)' class feature that grants the 'Oath of Enmity' power.  This is a base class feature that remains with the character his entire career.  All other rules elements that you select build on and can alter these base racial/class features(/hybrid talents), breaking the rules so to speak.  Retrainable character options that are not fixed at character creation -- feats, powers, paragon path, epic destiny, items, and so forth are more 'specific rules' elements imo, and can change the base character features.

In cases where there are mutually exclusive rules elements, the exclusion should be specifically stated.  For example, in May's errata, charge was specifically revised to state "No Further Actions: The character can't take any further actions during this turn, except free actions."  There are other examples of mutually exclusive feats (Moon Elf Resilience--Sun Elf Grace, Wild Elf Luck--Wood Elf Agility) that are clearly spelled out.  If the designers intended for Distant Vengeance to not modify the hybrid avenger's base class feature they should have made it clear in the feat description since hybrid avengers qualify based on feat prerequisites.


If the 25 non-hybrids can have 'general rule' class features as you clearly stated, then I maintain that the 25 hybrid classes also have 'general rule' class features, which can later be modified by feats and other more 'specific rule' elements.  Otherwise, what do you consider a 'general rule' element for a hybrid?

If the 25 non-hybrids can have 'general rule' class features as you clearly stated, then I maintain that the 25 hybrid classes also have 'general rule' class features, which can later be modified by feats and other more 'specific rule' elements.



One of three things have to happen for a hybrid class feature to be treated as a general rule:
Hybrid and non-hybrid versions are identical in all ways. Avenger's Armor of Faith is the same thing that a hybrid Avenger gets with the Hybrid Talent feat. So Improved Armor of Faith asking about Armor of Faith isn't a problem.
The rules element specifically includes the hybrid as being thought about. As of yet, this hasn't happened.
The hybrid version's limited function doesn't conflict with the new specific rule. Hybrid Cleric + Supreme Healer. Hybrid Cleric gets fewer Healing Words than a Cleric, but they're otherwise the same thing.

Otherwise, the hybrid version is merely qualifying as the prereq, it isn't actually the prereq and that might lead to very unexpected results. An example of this is Twofold Pact as an example for hybrid Warlocks - they don't have the actual Pact Feature, but Twofold Pact ends up not just granting the new pact boon, but the old one as well.
One of three things have to happen for a hybrid class feature to be treated as a general rule:
Hybrid and non-hybrid versions are identical in all ways. Avenger's Armor of Faith is the same thing that a hybrid Avenger gets with the Hybrid Talent feat. So Improved Armor of Faith asking about Armor of Faith isn't a problem.
The rules element specifically includes the hybrid as being thought about. As of yet, this hasn't happened.
The hybrid version's limited function doesn't conflict with the new specific rule. Hybrid Cleric + Supreme Healer. Hybrid Cleric gets fewer Healing Words than a Cleric, but they're otherwise the same thing.

Otherwise, the hybrid version is merely qualifying as the prereq, it isn't actually the prereq and that might lead to very unexpected results. An example of this is Twofold Pact as an example for hybrid Warlocks - they don't have the actual Pact Feature, but Twofold Pact ends up not just granting the new pact boon, but the old one as well.

I should have expected such an eloquent response from the author of the Hybrid Miscibility Handbook (great job there, btw!).

Also agree that "hybrid" specific rules elements are not to be found... anywhere in the compendium other than the raw building block class features of hybrid classes.

Regardless, I consider the hybrid avenger Oath of Enmity (Hybrid) class feature to be just as core and fundamental a rule element as the avenger Oath of Enmity class feature.  Both are general rule elements imo that the Distant Vengeance feat overrides, 'breaking' the rules of both class features.

Just as the Fight On warlord feat can grant a hybrid warlord an additional use of inpiring word per encounter -- breaking the hybrid rule -- so I maintain that Distant Vengeance allows hybrid avengers to gain their OoE benefit against their OoE target with RBA's.
I think, worst case scenario, is that you bring a second version of your character sheet to the table. If the DM wants to ignore the CustServ ruling that it works, then you just bring a version that is a Seeker MC Avenger. You get get three rounds of Distant Vengeance per combat, with the benefit of saving some feats and getting the ability to shift as a minor action.
I think Oath Strike is still very much worth taking, as it's a free -2 to hit debuff to enemies that can't get to us.

The only problem I have with Oath Strike is it's duration.  One monster turn, that's it.  And no way to reapply it on a given monster outside of shifting oath around a lot.

One round per oath. As you mention, shifting oaths works, but mainly if the party is focus firing monsters down, you'll be reapplying oaths every couple rounds.

Lawbreaker's Doom extends beyond the mark, which is nice.

 I should have expected such an eloquent response from the author of the Hybrid Miscibility Handbook (great job there, btw!).



Regardless, I consider the hybrid avenger Oath of Enmity (Hybrid) class feature to be just as core and fundamental a rule element as the avenger Oath of Enmity class feature.  Both are general rule elements imo that the Distant Vengeance feat overrides, 'breaking' the rules of both class features.



I think that's a very, very slippery slope to be walking down. As an example, hybrid Hunter's Quarry is only usable with Ranger powers. But Darkhunter allows you to deal Hunter's Quarry damage against each quarry(which is all enemies) that you hit in your cloud of darkness. Do you need to use Ranger powers to make this happen?

Just as the Fight On warlord feat can grant a hybrid warlord an additional use of inpiring word per encounter -- breaking the hybrid rule -- so I maintain that Distant Vengeance allows hybrid avengers to gain their OoE benefit against their OoE target with RBA's.



That's a case of where the limit (one use per encounter) is being directly addressed by the feat because it says one additional use. A Heroic tier character only gets one daily magic item use. Unless he gets a milestone and therefore gets one additional use.
I think, worst case scenario, is that you bring a second version of your character sheet to the table. If the DM wants to ignore the CustServ ruling that it works, then you just bring a version that is a Seeker MC Avenger. You get get three rounds of Distant Vengeance per combat, with the benefit of saving some feats and getting the ability to shift as a minor action.



Hmm? That's a really blatantly illegal thing to do in LFR...

"Okay, since you won't allow me to do my option, is it okay if I cheat and pretend that my character was never a hybrid in the 1st place?"
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