Community

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

Update 24 May 2011:
1) Switched MC Warden + Sudden Roots for MC Fighter + Hindering Shield. Benefits: no need for the theme (now just meet prereq: fighter), and slow on net attacks instead of OAs -> your prey will already be slowed before the OA. Suggested by ??? (somehow his post vanished).
2) Changed Race to Mul in reference build -> hand out 3x61 thp as free actions each encounter (inspired by Jay_libero_911's Mul build).

The Inescapeable Fisherman 2.0

If someone is adjacent to the Fisherman, he will stay adjacent, unable to do anything. He cannot shift away. If he tries to move away, he won't (the Fisherman does damage and prone him down in the process). If he tries to hit us, good luck. Not only are the defenses good (48/44/46/43), but he also gets damaged 8 (white lotus), has to bypass DR 5 and 28 temp hps.

This can be done for up to 8 enemies at once, reliably, all the time (no encounter limit). The Fisherman can deal at-will burst damage vs. all adjacent enemies (and damage+slide+slow everyone from 2 squares away closer), or use an encounter burst 5, marking and pulling enemies adjacent from a 80 square area surrounding him. He can also reduce damage dealt to allies by 28 twice a round, in doing so gains 28 temporary hitpoints each, with the option to loose them and give 31 temporary hitpoints to an adjacent ally. As a free action 3/encounter, he can give himself 58 temporary hitpoints or 61 hitpoints to an ally.

The build is completely functional with any int+dex, int+str, con+dex or con+str race. it is also item independant and can work with just vanilla magic items (looses DR and temporary hitpoints however, but nothing build critical).

before lvl 16

daily powers:
1: Steel Unity Strike
5: Beckoning Strike
9: Bloody Blades (from Gladiator Theme)

for some good shift denial/punishment pre lvl 16 (you will switch those out later)

level 16

Race Mul
Class Battlemind|Swordmage
PP Gladiator Champion

Stats
con 14-16->20 (5)
dex 14->15 (5)
str 12-14->15     (2)
int 16->20     (9)
wis 11->12    (1)
cha 8->10

Feats
Arcane Admixture (Sword Burst, Thunder)
Resounding Thunder
Mark of Storm
Heavy Blade Opportunity
Versatile Expertise
Hybrid Talent: Battlemind Armor Proficiency
Improved Defenses
Wrathful Warrior
Hindering Shield
Blade Opportunist

At-Will:
Brutal Barrage
Lodestone Lure
Sword Burst

Enc Powers:
Transposing Lunge

[sblock=level 30]
Race Mul
Class Battlemind|Swordmage
PP Gladiator Champion
ED Destined Scion

Stats
con 14-16->26 (5)
dex 14->16 (5)
str 12-14->16     (2)
int 16->26     (9)
wis 11->13    (1)
cha 8->10

HP 235 bloodied 117 surge 58 (17/day)

Defenses
AC: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+12(chain)+2(concealment)+2(shield)= 47
Fort: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+8(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)= 44
Ref: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+8(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+2(shield)= 46
Will: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+1(wis)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+4(epic will)+2(class)=43

Feats:
Arcane Admixture (Sword Burst, Thunder)
Resounding Thunder
Mark of Storm
Heavy Blade Opportunity
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise
Total Aegis
Rapid Aegis Reaction
Greater Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Talent: Battlemind Armor Proficiency
Epic Will
Improved Defenses
Wrathful Warrior
Hindering Shield
Blade Opportunist
Inexhaustible Resources
Epic Recovery
Stoneheart Warrior

Powers
At-Will:
Mind of Mirrors
Brutal Barrage
Sword Burst

Enc Powers:
Thundering Vortex (L17)

Daily Powers:

Utility Powers:

Items:
Weapon: Jagged Longsword+6* (27) + Shard of the Mage (23)
Head: Helm of Opportunity+3 (24)
Neck: Amulet of Vigor+6 (30)
Arms: Heavy Shield of Fellowship (15)
Armor: Enduring Health Chain (28)
Hands: Many Fingered Gloves (20)
Ring: Ring of Opal Rememberance (29)
Ring: Ring of Free Time (29)
Ring: Shadow Band (27)
Waist: Baldric of Shielding (19)
Feet: Airstriders (25)
Tatoo: Eager Heroe's Tatoo (paragon) (20)
Boon: Corellon's Boon (heroic) (8)
Battlescar: Reflexive Psychic Shroud (paragon) (17)

*: If you often face enemies with teleportation, get a feyslaughter weapon instead.

Wonderous: Quarz Lens Solitaire (5), Dice of Auspicious Fortune x3 (11), Saphire Scabbard (15), Keoghtom’s Ointment x2 (12), Foe Stone (12), Ritual Book, Rituals, Residuum

All magic items are nice to have, the most important ones (that add additional great features) are Shield of Fellowship + Baldric of Shielding. The Helm of Opportunity also helps (with it, the chance to prone is 97%, without it only 84%), but generally no specific item is required.

[/spoiler]

Opportunity attack with HBO Brutal Barrage
to hit: 15(lvl)+3(prof)+3(expertise)+6(enh)+8(con)+1(ED)+2(bladeOpp)+3(item) +41* vs AC 44
effect: 3 attacks, damage target, if at least 2 attacks hit, knock prone

Swordburst
to hit: 15(lvl)+8(int)+6(enh)+3(experise)+2(ring)+1(ED) = +36 vs Ref 42
effect: all enemies in close burst 2: damage + slide adjacent + slow

How it works:

The Fishernet:
Our at-will net is Sword burst, which damages and slides everyone in a burst 2 (5x5 area) adjacent to us. If we want a bigger catch, or the fish is scattered, we use the encounter power Thundering Vortex, which aegis marks, damages and slides every enemy in a burst 4 (9x9 area) adjacent to us.

The Fisherboat:
The boat is the area directly surrounding the fisherman (i.e. adjacent squares). So, after we threw out our nets, the fish are adjacent to us, but the big wide ocean calls... Ok, ill stop the analogy. The enemy really wants to get to the squishy mage, or the annoying cleric, or just anywhere but close to us (see The Bastion). So, it would like to shift and charge. But it can't, due to the lvl 16 feature of our paragon path. So, it moves or charges, triggering an opportunity attack. Our opportunity attack triggers heavy blade opportunity, and we use brutal barrage. Brutal Barrage is pretty accurate due to OA precision enhancers, so its 3 attacks +41 vs AC 44. If at least two of them hit (which happens with a 0.972 probability), the target gets knocked prone (and its slowed from the net already), ending its movement before it began, and remainig adjacent to the fisherman (now prone+slowed)

The Bastion:
Some might say: Who cares ? I shall simply attack the fisherman. Fortunately, this is exactly what we want. Due to our high defenses, the chance for a hit is low. But if a hit occurs, white lotus riposte will also trigger, and with regeneration 10 and DR 5, and normally about 28 temporary hitpoints, the hit won't hurt.

THP and DR for the whole Party
And i'm talking about DR 28 and additionally THP 31 twice per round. Every time our Aegis is triggered, the damage is reduced by 28 hitpoints, the Fisherman gains 28 temporary hitpoints and can optionally give up those 28 temporary hitpoints to give an adjacent ally 31 temporary hitpoints. This can happen twice per round, every round. As a free action 3/encounter, he can give himself 58 temporary hitpoints or 61 hitpoints to an ally (3x second wind, modified with inexaustable resources, transferable via Shield of Fellowship.

Comments/Suggestions/Improvements welcome ! (especially daily / util power selection, and status effect avoidance)

Variants

Mule Build

Show

Race Revenant (longtooth shifter)
Class Battlemind|Swordmage
PP Gladiator Champion
ED Destined Scion

Stats
con 14-16->26 (5)
dex 14->16 (5)
str 12-14->16     (2)
int 16->26     (9)
wis 11->13    (1)
cha 8->10

HP 215 bloodied 107 surge 53 (17/day)

Defenses
AC: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+12(chain)+1(feat)+2(concealment)+2(shield)= 48
Fort: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+8(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)= 44
Ref: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+8(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+2(shield)= 46
Will: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+1(wis)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+4(epic will)+2(class)=43

Feats:
Arcane Admixture (Sword Burst, Thunder)
Resounding Thunder
Mark of Storm
Heavy Blade Opportunity
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise
Total Aegis
Rapid Aegis Reaction
Greater Aegis of Shielding
Hybrid Talent: Battlemind Armor Proficiency
Epic Will
Improved Defenses
Wrathful Warrior
Hindering Shield
Blade Opportunist
Inexhaustible Resources
Epic Recovery
Stoneheart Warrior

Powers
At-Will:
Mind of Mirrors
Brutal Barrage
Sword Burst

Enc Powers:
Thundering Vortex (L17)

Daily Powers:

Utility Powers:

Items:
Weapon: Jagged Longsword+6* (27) + Shard of the Mage (23)
Head: Helm of Opportunity+3 (24)
Neck: Amulet of Protection+6 (26)
Arms: Heavy Shield of Fellowship (15)
Armor: Enduring Health Chain+6
Hands: Many Fingered Gloves (20)
Ring: Ring of Opal Rememberance (29)
Ring: Ring of Free Time (29)
Ring: Shadow Band (27)
Waist: Baldric of Shielding (19)
Feet: Airstriders (25)
Tatoo: Eager Heroe's Tatoo (paragon) (20)
Boon: Corellon's Boon (heroic) (8)
Battlescar: Reflexive Psychic Shroud (paragon) (17)

*: If you often face enemies with teleportation, get a feyslaughter weapon instead.

Wonderous: Quarz Lens Solitaire (5), Dice of Auspicious Fortune x3 (11), Saphire Scabbard (15), Keoghtom’s Ointment x2 (12), Foe Stone (12), Ritual Book, Rituals, Residuum

All magic items are nice to have, the most important ones (that add additional great features) are Shield of Fellowship + Baldric of Shielding. The Helm of Opportunity also helps (with it, the chance to prone is 97%, without it only 84%), but generally no specific item is required.

Swordmage|Warlock/Gladiator Champion/Destined Scion
hybrid talent: Swordmage Warding, go the light armor route. Add warding curse for +2 to all defenses.
Instead of HBO Brutal Barrage, use the eldrich strike MBA, MC Fighter and Polearm Momentum (you need to switch wis 13->wis 16 and str 16->str 13 to prone enemies trying to get away.

Single Class Swordmage/Gladiator Champion/Soul of the World
second at-will is frigid blade with (arcane admixture thunder) or booming blade, which will be used with HBO, Mark of Storms and rushing cleats. You also need MC Fighter and Polearm Momentum. This build has only one main stat, so its more precise and doesn't suffer from the hybrid restrictions. Also, since Con doesn't need to be as high, you can get the stats for both HBO and Polearm Momentum (and, while we are at it, Polearm Gamble). Pick ED Destined Scion if you don't want to be a Deva.

Single Class Swordmage

Benefit: If enemies try to get close to you (polearm gamble), or try to get away from you (OA Booming blade), or are simply in your sword burst radius/thundering vortex radius), slide them 2 squares and knock em prone. Additionally, you don't need the Gladiator Theme (Props to Herid_Fel mentioning that themes can be problematic).

Race Deva
Class Swordmage
PP Gladiator Champion
ED Soul of the World

Stats
con 14->20 4 pt
dex 13->16 1 pt
str 13->16     1 pt
int 16-18->28     6 pt
wis 12-14->18
cha 8->10

HP bloodied surge

Defenses
AC: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+4(leather)+9(int)+2(feat)+2(concealment)+1(warding)+1(shield)= 50
Fort: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+5(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)= 41
Ref: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+9(int)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+1(shield)= 46
Will: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+4(wis)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+2(class)=42

Feats:
Arcane Admixture (Sword Burst, Thunder)
Resounding Thunder
Mark of Storm
Heavy Blade Opportunity
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise
Total Aegis
Rapid Aegis Reaction
Greater Aegis of Shielding
Reserve Maneuver
Improved Defenses
Rapid Regeneration
MC Fighter
Polearm Momentum
Polearm Gamble
Blade Opportunist
Swordmage Implement Expertise
Improved Swordmage Warding

Powers
At-Will:
Sword Burst
Booming Blade

Enc Powers:
Thundering Vortex (L17)
Dimensional Vortex (L3, reserve)
Radiant Shield (L23)
Circle of Devastation (L27)

Daily Powers:

Utility Powers:

Items:
Weapon: Feyslaughter Glaive+6* (29) + Shard of the Mage (23)
Head: Helm of Opportunity+3 (24)
Neck: Amulet of Protection+6 (26)
Arms: Rythm Blade Wrist Razors+1 (3)
Armor: Magic Leather Armor (26)
Hands: Many Fingered Gloves (20)
Ring: Ring of Opal Rememberance (29)
Ring: Ring of Free Time (29)
Ring: Shadow Band (27)
Waist: Baldric of Shielding (19)
Feet: Rushing Cleats
Tatoo: Eager Heroe's Tatoo (paragon) (20)
Boon: Corellon's Boon (heroic) (8)
Battlescar: Reflexive Psychic Shroud (paragon) (17)

*: Only if you often face enemies with teleportation, otherwise carnage weapon (or staggering for slide 8)

Wonderous: Quarz Lens Solitaire (5), Dice of Auspicious Fortune x3 (11), Saphire Scabbard (15), Keoghtom’s Ointment x2 (12), Foe Stone (12), Ritual Book, Rituals, Residuum

Swordmage|INT Class/Gladiator Champion/Destined Scion
Get melee training intelligence, a lighting weapon, MC fighter and Polearm Momentum. For armor, light armor+warding route. With Mark of Storms, you can slide+prone enemies leaving. That way you have the stickyness and aegis of the build, as well as psion/wizard/warlord/artificer powers & features to throw around...

CO Posts

#2 Dec 12, 2010 3:09:48

RayjeEliwan

Joined Mar 2010

632 Posts

So, at what level would you say that this becomes playable at all, and at what level does it really come into its own? I can't really tell just by looking at a statblock when a build actually starts to matter.

That Rune Aimer: A Runepriest's Handbook

#3 Dec 12, 2010 3:16:04

Alcestis

Joined Oct 2009

8509 Posts

It looks like it becomes inescapable at 16 and extremely frightening at 11/12.

#4 Dec 12, 2010 3:31:29

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

So, at what level would you say that this becomes playable at all, and at what level does it really come into its own? I can't really tell just by looking at a statblock when a build actually starts to matter.

Its playable at level 1 (first feat is hybrid talent: battlemind armor): you are a scale, sword and board guy with high AC, Ref and Fort, your aegis offers DR 8, steel unity allows a mechanic similar to the PP feature, sword burst burst is burst 1, and you use a different battlemind power etc.

At level 11, the sword burst has burst 2 (5x5 squares) and slides.

At level 13, HBO + brutal barrage for knockdown arrives.

lvl 16 adds the PP feature that removes the ability to shift - so you don't need dailies like steel unity anymore.

Thats about it, everything else are just gradual improvements (maybe with the exception of getting and giving big amounts of temporary hitpoints @ lvl 18)

But i want to finish the lvl 30 build before i start to get into earlier levels, and get some sleep (its 10am here ^^)

CO Posts

#5 Dec 12, 2010 6:49:45

Joined Mar 2010

692 Posts

One of my favorite builds I've seen in a long time (and that's saying a lot since I don't like how most defenders play). Heavy, heavy control and really interesting schtik (I quite appreciate all the references to fishing :D)

Also like that it's so flexible in race decision (granted, that's partially due to not having a real con/int race).
Some questions:
How well do you think this build will play with another defender?
And what, between int and con, do you find to be more crucial to the build's success?

What do you think about throwing White Lotus Master Riposte in here (and not marking)? Or do you feel like, even trapped inside of here, enemies don't have enough reason to attack you? Since you'll already have a group of enemies collected around you, being able to repeat swordburst as an immediate reaction sounds like fun- granted it eats up your immediate reaction. Do you feel like there will be rounds where your immediate reaction is not used up and this would be a good option?

Edit: And how are you getting DR 5 for yourself?

Currently Playing: lvl 6 Pixie Skald in Home Campaign lvl 2 Human Bard in Forgotten Realms ---

#6 Dec 12, 2010 14:26:00

MinotaurLord

Joined Dec 2008

38 Posts

What is the feat "Grasping Roots"?

#7 Dec 12, 2010 14:29:51

Alcestis

Joined Oct 2009

8509 Posts

What is the feat "Grasping Roots"?

Sudden Roots. Makes OA's slow, it is why he MCed Warden.

#8 Dec 12, 2010 14:45:01

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

What is the feat "Grasping Roots"?

Sudden Roots. Makes OA's slow, it is why he MCed Warden.

Thanks, fixed it.

One of my favorite builds I've seen in a long time (and that's saying a lot since I don't like how most defenders play). Heavy, heavy control and really interesting schtik (I quite appreciate all the references to fishing :D)

Thank you !

Also like that it's so flexible in race decision (granted, that's partially due to not having a real con/int race).
Some questions:
How well do you think this build will play with another defender?

I think the should play well together. Just use your own aegis marks on some remote enemies. The other defender can still mark all targets close to you, since the gladiator feature doesn't rely on marks to get stickyness. If the other defender uses an aura (like the knight), that also works, since the gladiator feature is no aura, thus no overlap occurs.

And what, between int and con, do you find to be more crucial to the build's success?

Int is probably a bit more important, since the con based brutal barrage gets +5 to hit from OA optimization, and only needs to hit two times (out of 3).

What do you think about throwing White Lotus Master Riposte in here (and not marking)? Or do you feel like, even trapped inside of here, enemies don't have enough reason to attack you?

Actually, i want to give them some reason to attack me. I certainly could increase defenses even more, and punish them more for attacking me via White Lotus Master Riposte. But attacking the defender should be still be the best out of several bad choices. Therefore, he is hard to hit, but not impossible. He is hard to damage, but not impossible.

His choice is this:
A) Do i attack the defender and have a chance to hit and do damage
B) Do i attack someone else - with -2 to hit from mark, -2 to hit from prone and DR 28

Since you'll already have a group of enemies collected around you, being able to repeat swordburst as an immediate reaction sounds like fun- granted it eats up your immediate reaction. Do you feel like there will be rounds where your immediate reaction is not used up and this would be a good option?

White Lotus Master Riposte got errata - 1) only works if enemy is not marked 2) only works against one enemy alone (i.e. no one else will get hit by it). Due to that, i think the immediate action is better used for aegis.

Edit: And how are you getting DR 5 for yourself?

Ring of free time. (the temp hps are from the belt, the ability to share them from the shield)

CO Posts

#9 Dec 12, 2010 16:20:07

mc-drowbane

Joined Aug 2010

1271 Posts

Gorgeous George: The Irresistible Defender Lucid, Star of Mourning: Prince of Hell Jerry the God Slaying Ninja Bard Deadly Little Miho: A Godslaying Build Damage Inc. - An exercise in Brutality Kevin Costner, Prince of Thieves: How I intend to steal the wand of Orcus Thunderstruck! - A Storm Genasi Solar Flare Build Battery: Circle of Destruction The Dominatrix: aka The Ace of Spades - A Seeker/Assassin Controller Michael Buffer: Prescient Buff Machine extraordinaire Blackened: A Blackguard Dragon Riding Indomitable Champion Dark Star: A Charismatic Blackguard DPR build Blitzkrieg: A Tough as Nails Throwing Nova Ranger Keraptis: An Archmage Fiery Necromancer

Good stuff Song. It is always a pleasure reading your builds.

My Builds

My Music

My Name is MC DrowBane Wookie Fish Man on the ground Fan Girlz Rule Char Op's Last Stand" A Call to Arms I roll 20's The Wrath of MC DrowBane: Optimizing a Nerd Rapper

The Hall of Heroes: A Legendary Collective The Big Bang: A Guide to Novas

#10 Dec 12, 2010 17:05:40

Joined Mar 2010

692 Posts

Thanks for all the responses :D

Ah, I wasn't familiar with that second bit of eratta. And here, I thought I found a legit, uncheesy reason to take WLMR

Nice addition of sudden roots- I was actually thinking of trying to mesh warden in there somehow since they're so good at keeping enemies around you. Slowing with OA's means even if they do manage to get away, on your turn you can just shift 1 and then use Swordburst again :D
Plus, that would only require 1 hit which is almost guaranteed.

I feel sorry for the artillery that get swordbursted by this build...
Moving away with be futile... and if they attack anything, you get an OA (which knocks them prone, thus lowering the hit chance by 2). It's sad when the best option is to get out your rusty butterknife and try and poke the defender.

It's also great how the gladiator's lvl 16 feature completely negates skirmishers- who are usually a nusance for defenders.

Currently Playing: lvl 6 Pixie Skald in Home Campaign lvl 2 Human Bard in Forgotten Realms ---

#11 Dec 12, 2010 17:10:07

Breadley

Joined Feb 2010

1692 Posts

A build I'd love to play. I'm picturing a big gruff sea dog with a bushy beard and a paunch of steel.

"Sonofa.... when you Kua Toa gonna learn to get outta mah way?"

The Smithy Knew He'd Lost His Groove When Scalding Sparks Left His Chin Too Smooth Dwarvenshave

#12 Dec 12, 2010 18:09:50

grandtheftgreyhawk

Joined Jan 2009

223 Posts

What does losing Mark of Storms do to the build?

#13 Dec 12, 2010 18:37:39

alienfrombeyond

Joined Mar 2002

704 Posts

I assume you're assuming the use of themes? Because otherwise you'd need to MC Fighter to take Gladiator Champion.

#14 Dec 13, 2010 6:30:19

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

A build I'd love to play. I'm picturing a big gruff sea dog with a bushy beard and a paunch of steel.

"Sonofa.... when you Kua Toa gonna learn to get outta mah way?"

i guess i need to find a good picture of a sea dog (maybe from Moby Dick or the old man and the sea)...

What does losing Mark of Storms do to the build?

Well, you don't slide with Sword Burst anymore. Thats not so bad, you can still use thundering vortex to get them adjacent, or just move up to them. Also, there are some nice battlemind dailies like nightmare vortex that provide the same necessary control. However, i prefer the option to do it at-will with sword burst - this frees up the daily slots for more interesting stances, and there is no fixed number of encounters after which your effectiveness degrades...

I assume you're assuming the use of themes? Because otherwise you'd need to MC Fighter to take Gladiator Champion.

Yes, i use the theme. If you cannot use themes, MC Fighter is not so bad (you loose warden+sudden roots), since you can also grab things like battle fury enounter stance (or simply weapon focus).

CO Posts

#15 Dec 13, 2010 6:55:13

netarious

Joined Jan 2008

1 Post

One of my favourite all-time builds (I ripped it off enough times). This was, for me, the first build that showed that an ultimate defender can also be an ultimate controller.

Good to see it updated.

My Builds:

Necarious - Defender/Controller/Striker (Battlemind/Gladiator Champion/Destined Scion) - DPR 184
Storminglord (Ranger) - DPR King Candidate (185.24)
The Emo Angler (Fighter|Warlord)
Shielding Immo-bola-izer (Swordmage|Avenger)
Death Metal (Bard/Artificer/Warden/Paladin/Wizard)
Bola Controlla (Wizard|Cleric)

#16 Dec 13, 2010 11:30:29

alphathegreat

Joined Mar 2008

1545 Posts

The Munchkin Fallacy The Theoretical Optimization Manifesto Modularity: A Guide to CO Tricks and Tactics Ultimate Defenders

Added to the Ultimate Defenders.

I realize you don't want to crank your "don't hit me" too high, but I think you could afford crank your NADs up a fair bit without suffering on your defending at all.

My builds

Darth Vader, Ultimate Defender, Swordmage|Warlock/Avernian Knight Thunderstruck, Striking Swordmage The Defenderlock Arcane Slasher --nerfed Nightcrawler, a Shift Slasher build --nerfed

#17 Dec 14, 2010 16:59:38

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

One of my favourite all-time builds (I ripped it off enough times). This was, for me, the first build that showed that an ultimate defender can also be an ultimate controller.

Good to see it updated.

Thanks ! Now added a single class build variant that doesn't need the gladiator theme. It also prones everyone on basically every power using polearm momentum, and has access to polearm gamble. I actually start to like it more than the original, maybe i'll switch them out.

Added to the Ultimate Defenders.

I realize you don't want to crank your "don't hit me" too high, but I think you could afford crank your NADs up a fair bit without suffering on your defending at all.

Thank you! The Epic Ref/Fort feats are still open for grabs. The least important feats are probably Longtooth Shifting+Regeneration, or maybe Warden + sudden roots.

Thanks for all the responses :D

Hey, thats my line ;)

Nice addition of sudden roots- I was actually thinking of trying to mesh warden in there somehow since they're so good at keeping enemies around you. Slowing with OA's means even if they do manage to get away, on your turn you can just shift 1 and then use Swordburst again :D
Plus, that would only require 1 hit which is almost guaranteed.

Or instantly shift 1 using the free action blurred step (if he's marked by me)... :D

CO Posts

#18 Dec 15, 2010 7:11:48

netarious

Joined Jan 2008

1 Post

It's a shame not to have some kind of at-will ranged pulling technique.

Taking human and Lightning Lure would give you an additional fishing rod (certainly a consideration for the single-class version).

#19 Dec 15, 2010 8:30:33

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

L3 BM: Lodestone Lure - congrats, you have a fishing rod. ;)

Builds: Achilles (Battlemind) - Ms. No (Psion) - Ronin (Battlemind) - Oracle of Death (Barbarian)
Concepts: current DPR King (Thief) - Dagger 101 (Rogue) - The Iron Curtain (Fighter) - Toppling Giants (Warlord)
Handbooks: Ender's Game (Battlemind) - Iaijutsu (Alpha-Striking) - Reservoir Dogs (Monsters)

#20 Dec 15, 2010 12:36:20

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

L3 BM: Lodestone Lure - congrats, you have a fishing rod. ;)

Good idea, changed it

CO Posts

#21 Dec 15, 2010 12:56:14

Joined Mar 2010

692 Posts

Would you then reserve all of your powerpoints for the augment 1 of lodestone lure assuming you actually have others outside your range you need to get adjacent?

Currently Playing: lvl 6 Pixie Skald in Home Campaign lvl 2 Human Bard in Forgotten Realms ---

#22 Dec 15, 2010 13:00:39

Joined Mar 2010

692 Posts

Nice addition of sudden roots- I was actually thinking of trying to mesh warden in there somehow since they're so good at keeping enemies around you. Slowing with OA's means even if they do manage to get away, on your turn you can just shift 1 and then use Swordburst again :D
Plus, that would only require 1 hit which is almost guaranteed.

Or instantly shift 1 using the free action blurred step (if he's marked by me)... :D

Can't they not shift away anyways? The only way an enemy would be able to move would be through teleports or simply walking (and missing epically on brutal barrage, or sharing an initiative).

You can only blurred step as a reaction to a shift.

Currently Playing: lvl 6 Pixie Skald in Home Campaign lvl 2 Human Bard in Forgotten Realms ---

#23 Dec 15, 2010 17:48:48

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

-- Daze / Blind / ... to stop OAs do.
-- Any forced movement.
-- Typical anti-blackhole coordinated charging works as well.
-- Plus all the jazz as close bursts and the like.
-- Without Gladiator multishifts and even some regular shifts to force bad positioning can work.

=> In practise it's certainly quite effective, and once all things start to come together by say L16, very annoying build for the DM. But it's not an instant encounter killer if the DM has his tactics in place, and then other factors like defenses, damage, etc will come into play again (eg the low damage on LL).

#24 Dec 15, 2010 18:10:57

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

Or instantly shift 1 using the free action blurred step (if he's marked by me)... :D

Can't they not shift away anyways? The only way an enemy would be able to move would be through teleports or simply walking (and missing epically on brutal barrage, or sharing an initiative).

You can only blurred step as a reaction to a shift.

Right, forgot that. I guess i should take another feature for the battlemind, blurred step seems useless after lvl 16.

-- Daze / Blind / ... to stop OAs do.
-- Any forced movement.
-- Typical anti-blackhole coordinated charging works as well.
-- Plus all the jazz as close bursts and the like.
-- Without Gladiator multishifts and even some regular shifts to force bad positioning can work.

=> In practise it's certainly quite effective, and once all things start to come together by say L16, very annoying build for the DM. But it's not an instant encounter killer if the DM has his tactics in place, and then other factors like defenses, damage, etc will come into play again (eg the low damage on LL).

Yes, its not a theorycraft build like the Arcane Feycharger (R.i.P.), you can actually play it without the DM using the banhammer (which i consider a good thing, since a DR 30 + thp + free surges unkillable revenant doing great damage won't survive more than one fight^^).

L1-15 it's still good. And the only alternative is Mind Spike, which you will seldom trigger above your Aegis I guess.

Plus many many people forget that BS can be used other for other means than chasing:
1) Mob shifts adjacent to you (from whereever) - take a step back and now the only thing it might be able to do is charge past you and eat a OA.
2) Same situations, but now you shift sideways to just avoid a flank.
3) And again, you might just reposition yourself to get adjacent to more mobs, which would have initiative before your next turn, and hence screw them, too.
Etc etc...

Really, BS is probably the most underappreciated and underused feature BMs have.

Good points, BS it is.

CO Posts

#25 Dec 15, 2010 18:16:16

langeweile

Joined Jul 2008

1560 Posts

L1-15 it's still good. And the alternative is just Mind Spike, which you will seldom trigger above your Aegis I guess.

Plus many many people forget that BS can be used for other means than chasing:
1) Mob shifts adjacent to you (from whereever) - take a step back and now the only thing it might be able to do is charge past you and eat a OA.
2) Same situations, but now you shift sideways to just avoid a flank.
3) And again, you might just reposition yourself to get adjacent to more mobs, which would have initiative before your next turn, and hence screw them, too.
Etc etc...

Really, BS is probably the most underappreciated and underused feature BMs have.

#26 Dec 15, 2010 21:46:59

EasyT

Joined Aug 2007

1666 Posts

As a frequent DM, I'm trying to imagine how my non-teleporting monsters would have any hope of escaping this build. I imagine two monsters caught in the boat, already bruised and knocked prone:

"You crawl in one direction, while I crawl in the other! He can only walk after one of us!" yelled Monster1 to Monster2, while sobbing uncontrollably. Slowed, each had to double-crawl to give one of them a chance of escape. [Cue Thundering Vortex.]

A tip my hat respectfully to this build, with equal parts admiration and terror.

#27 Dec 15, 2010 22:16:21

Herid_Fel

Joined Apr 2008

2513 Posts

Update 14 Dec 2010: Added a single class swordmage build that doesn't need the gladiator theme. Oh, and it gets polearm gamble and polarm momentum (so prone enemy on Sword Busts, OA Booming Blade etc). It's in the variants section at the end of post1.
Variants

Single Class Swordmage/Gladiator Champion/Soul of the World
second at-will is frigid blade with (arcane admixture thunder) or booming blade, which will be used with HBO, Mark of Storms and rushing cleats. You also need MC Fighter and Polearm Momentum. This build has only one main stat, so its more precise and doesn't suffer from the hybrid restrictions. Also, since Con doesn't need to be as high, you can get the stats for both HBO and Polearm Momentum (and, while we are at it, Polearm Gamble). Pick ED Destined Scion if you don't want to be a Deva.

Single Class Swordmage

Benefit: If enemies try to get close to you (polearm gamble), or try to get away from you (OA Booming blade), or are simply in your sword burst radius/thundering vortex radius), slide them 2 squares and knock em prone. Additionally, you don't need the Gladiator Theme (Props to Herid_Fel mentioning that themes can be problematic).

Race Deva
Class Swordmage
PP Gladiator Champion
ED Soul of the World

Stats
con 14->20 4 pt
dex 13->16 1 pt
str 13->16     1 pt
int 16-18->28     6 pt
wis 12-14->18
cha 8->10

HP bloodied surge

Defenses
AC: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+4(leather)+9(int)+2(feat)+2(concealment)+1(warding)+1(shield)= 50
Fort: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+5(con)+3(feat)+2(concealment)= 41
Ref: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+9(int)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+1(shield)= 46
Will: 10+15(lvl)+6(enh)+4(wis)+3(feat)+2(concealment)+2(class)=42

Feats:
Arcane Admixture (Sword Burst, Thunder)
Resounding Thunder
Mark of Storm
Heavy Blade Opportunity
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise
Total Aegis
Rapid Aegis Reaction
Greater Aegis of Shielding
Reserve Maneuver
Improved Defenses
Rapid Regeneration
MC Fighter
Polearm Momentum
Polearm Gamble
Blade Opportunist
Swordmage Implement Expertise
Improved Swordmage Warding

Powers
At-Will:
Sword Burst
Booming Blade

Enc Powers:
Thundering Vortex (L17)
Dimensional Vortex (L3, reserve)
Radiant Shield (L23)
Circle of Devastation (L27)

Daily Powers:

Utility Powers:

Items:
Weapon: Feyslaughter Glaive+6* (29) + Shard of the Mage (23)
Head: Helm of Opportunity+3 (24)
Neck: Amulet of Protection+6 (26)
Arms: Rythm Blade Wrist Razors+1 (3)
Armor: Magic Leather Armor (26)
Hands: Many Fingered Gloves (20)
Ring: Ring of Opal Rememberance (29)
Ring: Ring of Free Time (29)
Ring: Shadow Band (27)
Waist: Baldric of Shielding (19)
Feet: Rushing Cleats
Tatoo: Eager Heroe's Tatoo (paragon) (20)
Boon: Corellon's Boon (heroic) (8)
Battlescar: Reflexive Psychic Shroud (paragon) (17)

*: Only if you often face enemies with teleportation, otherwise carnage weapon (or staggering for slide 8)

Wonderous: Quarz Lens Solitaire (5), Dice of Auspicious Fortune x3 (11), Saphire Scabbard (15), Keoghtom’s Ointment x2 (12), Foe Stone (12), Ritual Book, Rituals, Residuum

Swordmage|INT Class/Gladiator Champion/Destined Scion
Get melee training intelligence, a lighting weapon, MC fighter and Polearm Momentum. For armor, light armor+warding route. With Mark of Storms, you can slide+prone enemies leaving. That way you have the stickyness and aegis of the build, as well as psion/wizard/warlord/artificer powers & features to throw around...

Quick note on the swordmage variants - you'll want to use Intelligent Blademaster rather than Melee Training (Intelligence) so you get the full Int bonus to damage. The first variant probably has that feat through heroic (before it can retrain into HBO).

#28 Dec 16, 2010 18:55:21

valenkosh

Joined Oct 2008

259 Posts

-- Typical anti-blackhole coordinated charging works as well.

This just tickles me. My short-lived Black Hole build lives on if only as shorthand jargon for the tactics that can ultimately take him down (as well as builds like Fisherman 2.0, I suppose?). The Black Hole being referred to in this way really flatters me . . . sort of like how Jack Sparrow gets flattered:

---

Norrington: You are without doubt the worst pirate I've ever heard of.

Jack Sparrow: But you have heard of me.

---

I'm going to go celebrate by finishing my final paper for this semester. Thanks for making my night, langeweile.

My Stuff The Complete Newbie's Non-Rulebook Glossary Sir Marks-a-Lot(v2.0): The Penalty-to-Hit Imposition Machine How to Build a Black Hole 4e Style

#29 Dec 16, 2010 23:37:12

mc-drowbane

Joined Aug 2010

1271 Posts

My Name is MC DrowBane Wookie Fish Man on the ground Fan Girlz Rule Char Op's Last Stand" A Call to Arms I roll 20's The Wrath of MC DrowBane: Optimizing a Nerd Rapper

Valenkosh I have been a fan of Black Hole from the beginning. He's the mack.

My Builds

My Music

The Hall of Heroes: A Legendary Collective The Big Bang: A Guide to Novas

#30 Dec 17, 2010 0:58:43

mc-drowbane

Joined Aug 2010

1271 Posts

My Name is MC DrowBane Wookie Fish Man on the ground Fan Girlz Rule Char Op's Last Stand" A Call to Arms I roll 20's The Wrath of MC DrowBane: Optimizing a Nerd Rapper

This build has been added to the Hall of Heroes.

My Builds

My Music

The Hall of Heroes: A Legendary Collective The Big Bang: A Guide to Novas

#31 Dec 17, 2010 1:54:53

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

Quick note on the swordmage variants - you'll want to use Intelligent Blademaster rather than Melee Training (Intelligence) so you get the full Int bonus to damage. The first variant probably has that feat through heroic (before it can retrain into HBO).

Thanks, Intelligent Blademaster was completely off my radar, i'll change it.

This build has been added to the Hall of Heroes.

...i will take this as an incentive to finally sit down and get power selection done. Good work on the Hall of Heroes, DPR optimization is great, but a compilation really showing off selected builds with interesting tactics beyond just DPR was sorely missing before you came along.

CO Posts

#32 Feb 08, 2011 11:00:15

borg285

Joined Jan 2008

3022 Posts

How much damage should I shoot for?

What book is "Quarz Lens Solitaire" found in?
By the way, awesome buids man. Just awesome.

DPR King Candidates 3.0

You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR

DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you

DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?

#33 Feb 08, 2011 11:27:59

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

What book is "Quarz Lens Solitaire" found in?

It's from Dark Sun Campaign Setting - but the effect is just for show (1/enc: critical hit deals radiant or fire type damage)...

By the way, awesome buids man. Just awesome.

Thank you very much

CO Posts

#34 Feb 20, 2011 16:28:01

kryx

Joined Apr 2006

694 Posts

Hey Song,

Which version is the strongest in your opinion? I'm looking for the best defender role. I assume the variants are less powerful, but bypass some restrictions. Can you add some insight? If you can clarify how they differ more that'd be great.

Also: I'm probably blind, but what is the reason for revanent? I'd prefer to port it to something else unless there is a compelling reason.

How I came to be: An adventurer's guide to backgrounds Juggling Implements : A simple guide to implement benefits for casters General Skill Ratings

#35 Feb 23, 2011 18:13:51

kryx

Joined Apr 2006

694 Posts

Bump. Saw you active so hoping maybe you'll see my post this time.

I'd also like to see this build at a lower level - say 6 or 12. Moreso the tactics - wondering if it's anywhere near as effective in Heroic .

How I came to be: An adventurer's guide to backgrounds Juggling Implements : A simple guide to implement benefits for casters General Skill Ratings

#36 Feb 23, 2011 21:31:53

vivianna_romanones

Joined Aug 2008

302 Posts

Also: I'm probably blind, but what is the reason for revanent? I'd prefer to port it to something else unless there is a compelling reason.

It's probably for the CON bonus and the Feat, but neither are critical to the build.

New signature under development.

#37 Feb 24, 2011 11:12:02

damiel

Joined Oct 2007

97 Posts

Specifically the Revenant allows you access to the Longtooth Shifter's regeneration (and the increase available to this regeneration via Rapid Regeneration). The regneration adds a formidable amount of durability to the build but the "Inescapable" and the "Fisherman" parts of this build (shift denial and drawing enemies in with Sword Burst) are accomplishable with any number of races.

#38 Feb 24, 2011 12:06:47

kryx

Joined Apr 2006

694 Posts

I figured as much. Reitterating my more important questions:

Version
Which version is the strongest in your opinion? I'm looking for the best defender role. I assume the variants are less powerful, but bypass some restrictions. Can you add some insight? If you can clarify how they differ more that'd be great.

Heroic Scalability
I'd also like to see this build at a lower level - say 6 or 12. Moreso the tactics - wondering if it's anywhere near as effective in Heroic .

How I came to be: An adventurer's guide to backgrounds Juggling Implements : A simple guide to implement benefits for casters General Skill Ratings

#39 Feb 24, 2011 14:11:40

vivianna_romanones

Joined Aug 2008

302 Posts

Heroic Scalability
I'd also like to see this build at a lower level - say 6 or 12. Moreso the tactics - wondering if it's anywhere near as effective in Heroic .

You can infer it by what he wrote in the "Prior to L.16" block and the L.16 version, seeing what Feats the character would have access too.

At Heroic, the character is a decent defender but the "Inescapable Fisherman" aspect really only comes on line with the Paragon powers.

Obviously the At-Wills are still the At-Wills, and Mark of Storms is still Mark of Storms, and the character is capable/competent at Heroic but not *special* yet.

But, then, that is true of every character: naturally they don't have as many abilities, aren't what they will become - and the threats they face aren't all that.

So, yeah - L.6-8; competent Mark-of-Storms-Swordburst Defender but not inescapable.

New signature under development.

#40 May 24, 2011 2:26:38

Joined Jun 2007

1307 Posts

Changed MC Warden + Sudden roots to MC Fighter + Hindering Shield -> no theme requirements anymore, now sword burst slows instead of the OAs. Suggested by someone (his post unfortunately vanished somehow). Also changed race in reference build to Mul -> hand out 3x61 temp hp to allies as free actions each encounter (inspired by Jay libero 911).

Version
Which version is the strongest in your opinion? I'm looking for the best defender role. I assume the variants are less powerful, but bypass some restrictions. Can you add some insight? If you can clarify how they differ more that'd be great.

I think the main build is the best defender, due to his ability to give out up to 2x31 hit points to his allies, and theme limitation was just removed from this build.

Heroic Scalability
I'd also like to see this build at a lower level - say 6 or 12. Moreso the tactics - wondering if it's anywhere near as effective in Heroic .

What Viviana Romanones said. In addition, keep in mind you can use blurred step to keep up with enemies from lvl 1, which allows for double punishment on the marked foe. Example sequence: Marked enemy shifts -> you shift with him -> marked enemy charges -> opportunity attack -> marked enemy hits ally -> DR via Aegis of Shielding (DR: 8 @lvl1). So, while you don't have the capability to lock down multiple enemies yet, the marked one has more to fear from your mark than from most others at lvl 1.

CO Posts

#41 Jun 20, 2011 18:08:46

jacenthebard

Joined Dec 2010

6 Posts